Question about hitting steps

[softballphreak]

ranstl- I wasn't even getting as far as the shoulder/knee. The yellow line is the front of the plate to show them that we hit the ball before it crosses the plate - many younger kids think you wait until it arrives at the plate before you swing. Another thing was that most girls that age don't really have a clue about contact and how they should be positioned at contact.

I don't know about the armpit/tissue thing, maybe too young? I try to be careful with anything that might contribute to a tendency toward bat drag or girls swings getting "wristy".

I understand the yellow line at the plate but what I try to teach is that the poc is somewhere between the front foot and just before the centerline of the body for a pitch down the middle. I do this because there are times when the batters are at the back of the box or maybe the front of the box. Not saying moving up or back in the box is right or wrong, but it does change the poc to plate reference.

 

[softballphreak]

Not sure that this is a good idea, you need to consider the anatomical differences between boys and girls. Might be able to get away with it for younger girls, but 'developed' girls have breasts and the elbow needs to clear them as Hitter has pointed out previously!

Just sayin'

GM

I think this female difference thing is way over-emphasized.

I've worked with many players over the years. I've looked at many clips of female and male batters.

A few things I have observed:

There is not much "torque" at the knees during a swing. The bracing off of the front leg is not torque; it's pressure against a straight leg with the most pressure against the outside of the front foot. The same as in baseball.

The breasts are in front. The front moves; the breasts move. How does this affect the slot? I guess they could affect follow through but that could be dealt with by top-hand release. A large guy would have the same issue I guess. Especially if they had short arms. Just kidding last sentence.

The inexperience with the hammer is also not just girls. There are many boys who have never had hammer training. Both boys and girls would benefit with the hammer drill.

I understand the difference in the knees and there are precautions that need to be considered. Those precautions should be addressed in strength and conditioning. Basketball and skiing are the most dangerous for acl tears; and that is especially true for females.

The more I study softball the more I realize it's really fundamentally the same game. Other than the natural strength that males have over females, there isn't enough difference to worry about. That's the only reason the sports aren't mixed. I've seen some HS girls hit better than some HS boys when they both played baseball in the same game. After they mature it's a different story of course.

 

[obbay]

You are absolutely right, of course! This diagram is a simplified foundation that I build from.
Thanks for the feedback and your point is well taken.

 

[Hitter]

I think this female difference thing is way over-emphasized.

I've worked with many players over the years. I've looked at many clips of female and male batters.

A few things I have observed:

There is not much "torque" at the knees during a swing. The bracing off of the front leg is not torque; it's pressure against a straight leg with the most pressure against the outside of the front foot. The same as in baseball.

The breasts are in front. The front moves; the breasts move. How does this affect the slot? I guess they could affect follow through but that could be dealt with by top-hand release. A large guy would have the same issue I guess. Especially if they had short arms. Just kidding last sentence.

The inexperience with the hammer is also not just girls. There are many boys who have never had hammer training. Both boys and girls would benefit with the hammer drill.

I understand the difference in the knees and there are precautions that need to be considered. Those precautions should be addressed in strength and conditioning. Basketball and skiing are the most dangerous for acl tears; and that is especially true for females.

The more I study softball the more I realize it's really fundamentally the same game. Other than the natural strength that males have over females, there isn't enough difference to worry about. That's the only reason the sports aren't mixed. I've seen some HS girls hit better than some HS boys when they both played baseball in the same game. After they mature it's a different story of course.

I guess we can agree to disagree on how important it is or is not working with females verses males and what the differences are.

As to the knees the girls have wider hips and the knees are set more under them and yes it makes a difference. There is a little thing called Q angle. Take a bat and put it at your cap with the bat head at your knee and handle by your waist on you then a female. Notice the difference? You think you are working with the same foundation with a male and female? I will also bet most if any of them even understand their hamstring is causing the knee to even be at risk. So is it the male coach or the female coach or parents fault for not telling them. As a responsible coach you should know and offer advice on how to prepare better in my opinion. The boys are not at risk for this based on how we are designed and how the glutes fire.

After working with Crystl Bustos for 9 years, she talks and I listen as she is big on see it, feel it and fix it. Unlike AP and others who I have no access to I listen to what she tells me as to what she feels and thinks is important to teach as I am sure you would with working with Bonds or AP also.

I was given the opportunity to work with Finch, Jung, Topping, Berg, Lowe and Whatley and they echoed what Crystl had to say so I feel it is relevant to teach when working with girls.

This is not picking on you however it may sound familiar of someone you see working with girls who have worked with boys...they bark out stand taller in the box, you are leaning over too much, stand taller you are not balanced!

They do not balance the same way as we do so I think that is different and relevant.

Their shoulders are more narrow and rounded.

The hips are wider and the knees are more under them creating a much different base or foundation to work from than boys.

The notch where the ACL passes through is much narrower in girls and rounded in boys and causes the ACL to fray over time and usually does not fail until they are 18 to 22 years old.

The hamstring muscles are not as developed as the quad in females and is more balanced in males as to ratio.

The glutes fire the knee in males prior to landing and it does not in females however it can be taught using the PEP program. Google Santa Monica Sports Med.

Why is it guys always say girls throw like girls? If the guys are so smart why don't they understand how to teach them to throw like athletes? Every clinic we do we start by teaching them how to throw so we can teach them how to flex the lead foot leg and complete a weight shift since their knees do not fire like ours. Maybe SOME of the guys over looked that because out of 60 plus kids last week only about 5 knew what they were doing as to throwing and I find that alarming myself however power for the course.

Look at the female foot and it is wider in the front and narrow in the back and a lot of girls wear boys shoes however I guess you know that. It causes ankle instability as it allows the heel to move around in the shoe and probably they have not tied their shoes either and just stick the laces back in their shoes. Also do not forget women with shoes sizes of 8 or larger are more prone to ACL issues than 8 or smaller.

Have you ever wondered why if you have a son and a daughter that she sounds like an elephant when she comes down the stairs and he is making no sound at all? Now think why is it so difficult to teach them to stride and rotate?

Why is it for the same injury to the knee that boys baseball only has 3% injury rate and girls have 30.7%? Probably not significant enough to worry about as most girls only started playing softball when they turned 10 years old.

When teaching throwing to girls have you ever wondered why some girls throw almost directly over their head? Probably because they just do not know how to throw like boys! Look up a term carry angle and you may see on some girls this angle is as much as 4 to 10 degrees different than the boys. Looking at their arm slot could make a difference if you understood why their arm is doing what it is doing because of the elbow.

Some of you know me and at every clinic we have done we always ask for volunteers from the male coaches to show us how to get balanced. In 9 years don't you think one of you would have got it right?

We had a girl last week that the dad thought he had it right. Then when I walked over and tested for it she rocked backwards? Why? She looked balanced to him.
Then I pointed out she had bent at the waist and softened the knees and then she sat back down as to the spine angle and was no longer balanced. I ask the dad to look over the top of her head for a reference point as to head height and repeated her balance and he said it looked like she dropped abou3 inches. Then I put a ball bat at her butt cheeks and repeated and ask he if she felt like she was sitting on the bat? She said yes and then I ask her to move her knees more over or towards her toes and she did not sit on the bat and her dad said her head hardly moved. Her basketball coach is a male also and this stuff makes no difference with girls anyway.

If you and I were together we would be having fun while doing this and you would see I have a sense of humor however it is difficult some times to express it in word and still get the message across.

Try this yourself and create your own data....get a rope about 1 inch in diameter and knot one end of it and have a few different girls try this. Load step and prepare to swing very slowly and as the hitter starts to get to connection look at the relationship of the back elbow to the body and where is it and say nothing to them!!!!! Then allow them to get to bat lag and put a little tension on the rope and ask them to pull a little harder slowly. Where is the elbow? At the hip, away from the hip or somewhere in between? Now repeat and observe where the hands were to start, below the shoulders, at the shoulders above the shoulders? When they separated the hands rearward where did the back elbow go? Around the corner, straight back, further away or did the hands go up more or down?

Now as she slowly comes to connection see if you see her front side/ foot/ shoulders opening more to clear her body or is she too linear and look real closely at her top hand and observe her baby finger, ring finger and social finger have come loose or may be off the rope to some degree. Why is that? Why don't the boys do that?

Notice with the girls that are going through puberty the chest area gets thicker faster than in a boy and we are not talking just breast size either.

Now work with a girl who has two to three sports bras on tell me it makes no difference and you understand what she is going through and is feeling

Then please show how to dive for the ball without hurting herself. Then show her how to dive back to the bag without hurting herself.

Every time she hurts herself from your technique I get to kick you between the legs and tell you to suck it up and be a man!

I hope this casts some light that in my opinion there are enough differences in the teaching aspects of the elite NPF swing that warrants how we do it and to assure we do not do things that would get them hurt while doing it. Many have no idea that the knocked knee stance being used by males to prevent the front side from opening is putting stress on the medial meniscus and after time it will tear from collateral damage done over time.

The boys knees as to support is more even or stable as to hamstring and quad strength and our hips are not as wide....just Google female ACL injuries and spend a few hours and then look at what and how you teach and see if it is helping or hurting.

Please take nothing I said as being directed at you personally and I hope it sheds light on it for all of us!

Thanks Howard

 

[straightleg]

I was one of the ones who got to look like a dumb a##. It was all in fun.
He asked me to look at the pitcher when hitting. I had a hat on with a pointer that stuck out with a ball on the end. The pointer and ball were facing first base.

Then he asked me again if I was looking at the pitcher. I said yes . Everyone got a big laugh out of that one.

I was looking at the pitcher with one eye.




I work with girls mostly. It seems like most dont find balance on there own. For the most part they have to be taught and most of them listen better than the boys and work harder at it.
I also coach basketball. Years with my 2 older daughters and now starting over with my 3rd grade boy.
It is night and day different.



Straightleg

 

[softballphreak]

I guess we can agree to disagree on how important it is or is not working with females verses males and what the differences are.

. . .

Thanks Howard

I have no doubt whatsoever that you are extremely knowledgeable about this subject. I'm pretty certain in person you would be even more convincing. Therefore, I'm not going to disagree but I'm wondering just how widespread these problems are.

Do the better trained girls still have these issues? Is this something that you train through strength and conditioning and skills? If so, maybe most of the girls I'm familiar with have better technique, etc.

I know that the main team I work with puts a lot of emphasis on strength and conditioning during our pre-season. Knock on wood, we have been injury-free as far as joints are concerned for the past 3 years. Now, we get a lot of newbies that have had various skill training and we deal with them based on their current level and/or capability. Some are very good and we don't mess with them. For others we try with the limited time we have to get them better for game time. But the conditioning is for everyone, regardless of their current level.

My DD partially tore her ACL in basketball season in 1998 and tore it completely in SB in 1999, with substantial damage to her meniscus. For anyone who is not aware, that is a lifelong injury; it doesn't grow back. What you describe was her status back then. We weren't aware of the risks back then. Believe me, I have learned much more since then. I still beat myself up for not knowing. So I agree with you 100% that those issues need to be addressed. I believe, though, that it is not just a female difference issue; males and females should be more aware.

Somewhat of a consolation, my DD earned her Doctorate in Physical Therapy this past year.

I guess what I would like to see is more emphasis on what to train, what to condition, etc. I just don't see all the problems that it sounds like I should see with female athletes as far as handicapped swings, strides, throws, etc. Except with the ones who haven't learned much, yet.

As far as injuries to the chest area while diving, I'll have to admit I haven't tried to teach them anything there. I've just assumed they learned how to protect themselves elsewhere. But now that you've mentioned it I will definitely look into it.

I know you've probably heard this old one but do you know why girls don't wear a cup? Because their brains are in their head.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and tolerating my questioning.

 

[Hitter]

Do the better trained girls still have these issues? Is this something that you train through strength and conditioning and skills? If so, maybe most of the girls I'm familiar with have better technique, etc.

In my opinion yes. The damage that takes place is cumulative over time and then when they get bigger and stronger and usually take it to the next level, college snap and it is gone!

The studies done by the CDC and NCAA indicated soccer and basketball were the high risk sports. So the damage has been taking place over time and it appears your daughter was a statistic.

The Santa Monica Sports Med has the PEP program and this has been proven to reduce those ACL injuries by 41 %!!! Still their are high schools and colleges that have not adopted these techniques so the damage continues over time.

When I see a girl throw like a girl and is being coached by a man, I know they do not hit well. How could they as they do not even understand how to get balanced or shift their weight.

I am repeating myself but the female hamstring is one of the key points that goes un noticed and is needed to stabilize the knee.
For the boys this is not as big an issue. Same injury for boys verses girls in baseball and softball concerning the knee and 3% for the boys and 30.7 % for the girls is a clear indicator the girls are more at risk.

When the girls do not even understand how to get balanced or why it concerns me which is why we try and lay a foundation to build from. The sad part is that in all the years we have been doing clinics not one coach has ever been able to show me how to get balanced and why it is important! Then the females are playing more than one sport so I see it as more potential damage being done if they do not understand what they are teaching.

I still beat myself up for not knowing. So I agree with you 100% that those issues need to be addressed. I believe, though, that it is not just a female difference issue; males and females should be more aware.

I agree it applies to the boys also however the data does not indicate the same risks because of the knee, spine, hip and the way the knees fire and the balance of the ratio of hamstring to quad is much better in the male verse female.

I guess what I would like to see is more emphasis on what to train, what to condition, etc. I just don't see all the problems that it sounds like I should see with female athletes as far as handicapped swings, strides, throws, etc. Except with the ones who haven't learned much, yet.

For me I like to observe the throwing techniques first as it indicates to me if they can flex their lead foot knee which is a focal point for hitting and throwing as it shows an understanding of weight shift.

Look at all the girls who hit their shoulders and slap their backs and ask why? Why can we not teach them how to hit or throw like an athlete verses boy or girl?

Them why can't the girls learn how to use a $7 dollar hammer before we buy them a $300 dollar bat? They have probably have never used a hammer before so we made it part of their training.

I think proper techniques gives our girls an edge over their competition and is noticed by the colleges as we have had 70 plus in colleges.

By talking about it hopefully will make someone more aware of it and possibly look into the PEP program and teach them how to throw and what a weight shift as to throwing and hitting.

Thanks Howard

 

[Hitter]

softballphreak



softballphreak

This may help cast a little more light to the differences and what could cause more problems possibly doing some drills verses others.

I am not a doctor or certified trainer however I want to learn how not to cause further injury to females who have a pre disposed condition in the ACL and shoulder area especially.

Thanks Howard


San Francisco Medical Society | The Female Athlete
ANATOMICAL/PHYSIOLOGICAL FACTORS
OK. So we all know that girls are different than boys. Here are some differences you may not have been aware of.

Laxity
Females tend to have more lax ligaments than males, which is thought to put their joints at increased risk for injury. A recent study showed that the risk of injury in females may correlate to hormonal changes associated with the menstrual cycle. In particular, female athletes may be more prone to knee ligament injuries, shoulder instability and ankle sprains.

Knee - The Patella
Women have wider hips than men, which creates a wider angle at the knee where the patella articulates with the femur. (figure 1). This increased angle (often called the Q angle) affects the tracking of the patella and predisposes the female athlete to tracking problems. Abnormal tracking of the patella may lead to instability, or dislocation of the patella, or simply cause pain due to unbalanced loading of the joint. Think of this as a tire out of alignment in which unbalanced loads lead to the treads wearing out of one side of the tire. A similar phenomenon occurs under the knee cap. The female athlete should emphasize strengthening exercises that help to stabilize the patella to help improve tracking and prevent injury. These exercises should focus on the inner quadriceps muscles (Vastus medialis oblique or VMO). For those who fail to respond to conservative measures, new arthroscopic techniques are available to realign the patella.

The ACL
The female athlete seems to be disproportionately at risk for injury to the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL). There are several theories for this. For one, females tend to have a narrower space in the knee available for this ligament, so that less stress is required to tear the ligament than in the male athlete (figure 2). A recent study has also shown that female athletes tend to rely on their quadriceps more than their hamstrings compared to their male counterparts. Since the hamstring muscles are one of the main protectors of the ACL, relative weakness in this structure may lead to ACL injuries. Additional risk of injury is related to estrogen levels. Female athletes tend to sustain injury to their ACL during the ovulatory period of their menstrual cycle (day 10-14). This is the period when estrogen levels are the highest. Researchers have shown that the ACL contains estrogen receptors and that the ACL responds to estrogen by decreasing cell activity and synthesis of the basic ligament fibers (collagen).
Pre-season conditioning to build and maintain knee muscle strength, particularly the hamstrings, may help reduce the risk of injury. For female athletes who tear their ACL, surgical techniques are highly effective in reconstructing this ligament and returning the athlete to sports participation.

Ankle and Foot
Female athletes have been shown to have a higher incidence of ankle sprains than males. This is most likely due to several factors including increased ligamentous laxity and decreased muscle strength and coordination. Women also have a narrower heel in relation to their forefoot than men. Strengthening and coordination exercises for the ankle are recommended to limit the risk of this injury. Use of a balance board and elastic bands for inversion and eversion exercises are particularly helpful.
Women athletes also tend to get bunions and hammer toes from narrow shoe ware. These can be painful and affect athletic performance. Wider athletic shoes and bunion pads may be helpful when these problems occur. Improved shoe ware off the field may help prevent this problem.

Shoulder
Increased ligament laxity may place the female athlete at higher risk for shoulder instability. Particularly in overhead sports such as volleyball, tennis, swimming and softball or baseball. Women tend to have decreased upper body strength as well, adding to the risk. Rotator cuff strengthening exercises may help to prevent this injury. Internal and external rotation exercises using elastic tubing with the arm at the side is particularly helpful. For athletes who continue to have problems with shoulder laxity despite these treatments, new arthroscopic techniques allow for "shrinking" the lax ligaments, using a thermal heating probe.

Shin Splints
Exertional compartment syndrome is one of the causes of leg pain commonly known as shin splints. This form of shin splints occurs only during exercise, and quickly resolves after activity ceases. In female athletes, menstrual cycle and use of birth control pills can affect fluid shifts in the muscle compartments. In the female athlete suspected of having exertional compartment syndrome, modification of birth control medication may be curative.

Scoliosis
Scoliosis is a curvature of the spine that occurs in growing adolescents, and is much more common in females than males. In the early stages of scoliosis there are usually no symptoms. Suspicion should arise in the tall female athlete who appears to have an imbalance in shoulder or pelvic height. Small curves are not a contraindication to sports participation, but should be referred to a physician for evaluation and should be monitored for progression.

Spondylolysis
The young female gymnast or ballerina is particularly at risk for developing a spinal injury called spondylolysis, which is basically a stress fracture of the posterior elements of the spine. This is thought to result from the repetitive hyperextension required of these activities. Many of these athletes are also amenorrheic, making them more prone to develop stress fractures. The female gymnast or dancer with localized back pain that does not resolve quickly should be referred for medical and x-ray evaluation.

Conclusion
With recent scholastic rule changes as well as general societal trends, more and more females are participating in sports activities. Female athletes are predisposed to certain injuries and problems not encountered by their male counterparts. As medical practitioners, we need to keep these differences in mind in order to provide optimum care to these athletes.