POLL- do you think the Umpire determines who wins?

[tcom963]

Too bad you didn't have a video of him, then you could of reported him.

Reported him to who? What would "they" have done? It's just a shortage right now, and if you have a pulse.... ADs, UICs, and TDs will put you out there. The vast majority of the Blue Crew try to call perfect games.... unfortunately not 100% do.

 

[kennykozman!!]

From an umpire's perspective I can't think of any time I determined who won.

However like most umpires many plays I do remember are the blown calls that possibly ended a specific opportunity or chance for a team.

We remember the worst.....Top 10 HS matchup final score was 1-0. A great game to be apart of. I called a third strike on a "marginal' pitch that was low and out of the strike zone. Bases were loaded in the 5th for the team that lost- and 2 outs

After the game the classy coach of the losing team says to me: you blew that pitch but we had other opportunities. They don't make them like that any longer.

****** note to catchers**** catching a ball palms up will result in a ball call most of the time.

Honestly the postgame with my partner we talked about why I missed that call......still with me.....mostly timing mechanics from me......but that palm up glove oh boy.........I have real thing for it now.

 

[_MIA_]

An umpire determining the outcome of a game is not the same as blaming the umpire for losing. If mistakes by players can determine the outcome so can mistakes by umpires

 

[radness]

****** note to catchers**** catching a ball palms up will result in a ball call most of the time.

Honestly the postgame with my partner we talked about why I missed that call......still with me.....mostly timing mechanics from me......but that palm up glove oh boy.........I have real thing for it now.

So as an Umpire you are focused on what the catcher is doing and not the pitched/ball location?
Which means the catcher is influencing calls in the game.
I agree that happens.
____________________________________
As a catcher and catching instructor who has had many many catchers behind the plate and currently so,

This experience continues to show
Catchers are getting strike calls by utilizing turning their glove under the pitch. Actually gaining strike calls by Framing under the strike zone just as we would the sides and top.
By cutting off the edge.

Think the starting point of catcher's glove height has a lot to do with receiving pitches. Prefer starting under the batters knee, could be lower, but not higher.

Speaking to the trajectory of the pitch
Change ups and drops trajectory can go
under the strike zone.
it is advantageous to receiving the pitch to turn the glove underneath to cut it off.
And not let the ball fall to its lowest point.
Not chase with arm going down.

It is also advantageous to turn the glove under a pitch that is heading down under zone, because it additionally prepares us for a dirt pitch recovery.

Can frame the pitch (wrist) or field the dirt!

*Shoulder is a rotational socket we can rotate our arm like we would reaching out to turn a doorknob. Without having to drop our entire arm down.
Rotate arm, wrist/glove goes under ball.

* have also experienced turning glove on pitches that bounce and still getting strike calls from turning glove and hold.


( There is more than one way to achieve success. No umpire is the same as another)

 

[kennykozman!!]

So as an Umpire you are focused on what the catcher is doing and not the pitched/ball location?
Which means the catcher is influencing calls in the game.
I agree that happens.
____________________________________
As a catcher and catching instructor who has had many many catchers behind the plate and currently so,

This experience continues to show
Catchers are getting strike calls by utilizing turning their glove under the pitch. Actually gaining strike calls by Framing under the strike zone just as we would the sides and top.
By cutting off the edge.

Think the starting point of catcher's glove height has a lot to do with receiving pitches. Prefer starting under the batters knee, could be lower, but not higher.

Speaking to the trajectory of the pitch
Change ups and drops trajectory can go
under the strike zone.
it is advantageous to receiving the pitch to turn the glove underneath to cut it off.
And not let the ball fall to its lowest point.
Not chase with arm going down.

It is also advantageous to turn the glove under a pitch that is heading down under zone, because it additionally prepares us for a dirt pitch recovery.

Can frame the pitch (wrist) or field the dirt!

*Shoulder is a rotational socket we can rotate our arm like we would reaching out to turn a doorknob. Without having to drop our entire arm down.
Rotate arm, wrist/glove goes under ball.

* have also experienced turning glove on pitches that bounce and still getting strike calls from turning glove and hold.


( There is more than one way to achieve success. No umpire is the same as another)

This is good stuff! I have not seen many catchers framing pitches with glove under the pitch. I like it.

Umpires have been taught balls caught palm up are "get you in trouble pitches." Other umpires have mentioned this is going away. In my area it is still prevalent.

Any low marginal pitch caught palm up is going to be a ball call from many umpires. Framing with glove on top or to the side of the pitch can has been the answer. Again I am interested in catchers framing with the glove under the pitch.

Another unwritten rule......maybe it needs to be changed.

Going back to your original question yes what the catcher does can affect the call of the pitch. Umpires should be watching the pitch all the way into the glove, determining the pitch and making the call. When the glove is palm up OR the catcher drops the ball the outcome will result in more ball calls. Now right down the middle does it matter? No

On marginal pitches if the catcher drops the ball or palms up it is going to be a ball from experienced guys IMO. Yes the best catchers get the most strikes.

 

[radness]

@kennykozman!! Good chat topic!

* to be clear I am talking about pitches that are below the strike zone and heading down. As though pitch will not reach the catcher.

This is good stuff! I have not seen many catchers framing pitches with glove under the pitch. I like it.

Other umpires must liked it too because they call strikes!

Framing with glove on top or to the side of the pitch can has been the answer. Again I am interested in catchers framing with the glove under the pitch.

Nice to read of your interest!
From first-hand feedback for multiple decades umpires like the mechanics sharing about in framing. And currently.

Going back to your original question yes what the catcher does can affect the call of the pitch.

Yes know/agree what the catcher can/does affect the outcome of balls and Strikes. It is not always that an Umpire like yourself will comment to agree with that.

*However there is a debate of whether or not that should or does happen.
Some umpires will say absolutely no.
( would be a great post topic)


____________________
Being as though enjoy the technical technique of catchers and following games of seeing what an opposite team's catcher is doing versus a mechanic's prefer to see. Definitely can see a positive outcome of the mechanics prefer to see.
* that is referencing Decades of watching different catchinh mechanics with different umpires game after game!

_____________________________
It should be noted that on pitches that trajectory is going down below the strike zone. It is very common for most every catchers to turn their glove into a blocking position. Sometimes that glove goes backwards in between their legs and sometimes it just turns in front of their body to receive the pitch, cut it off, or field it.
There is a additional reason why I teach turning the glove is because we don't want to chase pitches going to the dirt with our Palm down especially when we may need to move to the sides. Fielder's don't field palm down and neither should catchers.
Especially short hops on throws turn their glove under/around!

 

[radness]

*Do think that sometimes umpire Strikes zones can look different,
home team or away team,
( have a different appearance)
but really it could be a difference of what the catchers are doing.

 

[EdLovrich]

Yes know/agree what the catcher can/does affect the outcome of balls and Strikes. It is not always that an Umpire like yourself will comment to agree with that.

*However there is a debate of whether or not that should or does happen.
Some umpires will say absolutely no.
( would be a great post topic)

I live in a fairly sparsely populated area of the country. That fact combined with the general decline in the number of umpires means that a handful of local HS teams will see me a significant number of times during the season and the remainder may only see me once or twice. The catchers who see me often learn "my" strike zone (more on what this means in a bit). They also learn the way that I like to see a pitch received, i.e. quiet hands, freeze it or turn the wrist slightly if it is borderline. Other catchers see other umpires more often, they may be used to a tighter zone, or an umpire who is influenced by where the glove finishes rather than where the ball passed through the zone. These catchers have been rewarded for pulling pitches into the zone and they will, at least at first, try to do the same with me and expect the results they are used to.

Earlier I referred to "my" strike zone. I know this will cause the hairs on the backs of some necks to rise. Let me explain what I mean by this. I am not saying that I have a personal definition of what a strike is, I know the limits of the strike zone as spelled out in the various rule sets. What I mean is that, in my mind, every pitch starts out as a strike and it remains a strike until it proves to me that it isn't. The way I was taught to set up (in the slot) means I have a VERY good view of the top of the zone and the inside edge. The outside and the bottom I have learned from seeing thousands, if not tens of thousands, of pitches. I have a pretty good idea of where those boundaries are.

But, I am human, My eyes are good but the are not laser-precision instruments. At 60 MPH, I might misjudge by an inch or two on occasion, would you dare to try to drive past a car at 60 MPH and have to judge within 6 inches?

I also hate being "that guy" that makes a pitcher throw into a coffee cup. Called strikes lead to swings, swings lead to hits, hit leads to runs, runs lead to exciting games for the players and the fans. That and pace of play (it isn't just an MLB issue, if it were there wouldn't be time limits on softball games) is directly inverse to the number of walks in a game.

I know most of us have heard the following many times, but it bears repeating for the current discussion. The diameter of a softball is 3.8 inches. The 'river' is 6 inches. if an umpires calls every pitch that is fully within the river a strike, then it is AT MOST less than 2 and a half inches off the plate. This is a long-winded (my apologies) way of saying that until I am convinced that a ball is at least partially outside the river on the outside corner, then it remains a strike in my mind.

Now, to tie this back to catchers influencing umpires: Catchers who are familiar with me and my tendencies, will not try to pull that borderline outside pitch back into the zone. They have better success leaving it there, in essence 'telling' me it is close enough to still be a strike. If a catcher pulls a pitch into the zone, the message they send is, "Mr Umpire, I think the pitch was outside the zone, so I will try to fix it for you" Catchers are most often very smart people, they know the strike zone, and if a catcher thinks a pitch was outside the zone, I am going to tend to agree with them, they have a better look at that outside edge than I do because their eyes are closer to being in line with that outside edge. Sooooo, a pulled pitch is going to reinforce any doubt I had about a pitch not being a strike, once it is no longer a strike there is only one other option, it must be a ball. So yes, catchers can and do influence an umpire, on those few pitches that are in the 'gray zone' where we can only make an educated guess about how close that pitch was to still being a strike.

Just a side note, no coach, manager or fan from at least 40 feet away and looking in from the side has the vaguest idea of whether or not a pitch just caught the corner or not. At the best, they are reading where and how the catcher received the ball.

 

[radness]

, I know the limits of the strike zone as spelled out in the various rule sets. What I mean is that, in my mind, every pitch starts out as a strike and it remains a strike until it proves to me that it isn't.

Sooooo, a pulled pitch is going to reinforce any doubt I had about a pitch not being a strike, once it is no longer a strike there is only one other option, it must be a ball.

So yes, catchers can and do influence an umpire, on those few pitches that are in the 'gray zone' where we can only make an educated guess about how close that pitch was to still being a strike.

Good read @EdLovrich
Like the detail about pitches starting as strikes. Agree in fastpitch where pitchers release the ball starts as a strike.

Also like how you are describing recognizing the difference of a pulled pitch.
(that would be something I would consider the catcher's ARM moving relocation of their hand and glove with the ball in it).
Which is a different mechanic then
*a subtle wrist with glove frame maneuver/mechanic upon receiving the pitch. Shaving the edge. (*Prefer)

 

[Tatonka]

Hey Ed, thanks for taking the time to write that all out in detail. That should be helpful for anyone who takes the time to read and understand your approach. It's always amazing to me that after so much has been discussed and written about not trying to "over" frame pitches or pull them into the strike zone we still see (at all levels) catchers pulling the ball 18" from where they receive it or other physical nonsense instead of staying quiet and giving the plate ump that all important good view you refer to.