Playing up, Up, UP

[YOCOACH]

Yocoach

I don't think we disagree about playing up. I'm a big advocate of it. But the OP's situation sounds like it is extreme. He mentioned that most of his team are girls recently removed from 12B to now playing 16Gold teams. That's just not reasonable.

I think you are missing my main point about learning to play in pressure situations. There are absolutely no pressure situations in a 22-0 blowout. There aren't any in a 9-2 loss. I absolutely agree that there is a lot to be learned in losses, even in a lot of bad losses. But at some point you have to learn how to win. You have to be in a situation that the game is on the line. If you are never in that situation, you wont learn how to do it. Setting up a team to fail only teaches them how to fail.

I agree with you on all points made. However, see above post. They are a first year "A" level 14U team that are playing, with the exception of some Fall tournaments, at the 14U "A" level. I also agree that there is no reason to travel out of state to get your butts handed to you. There's no reason to spend the money when you can get it closer to home.

 

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

If I were in your situation, I would be asking two questions of the coaches. 1) What's the short term goals for playing up in these tournaments? 2) What's the long term goals for this?

I am a huge believer in playing the best competition around in order to get better. If that means playing up and getting our butts handed to us then so be it. By the same token, I have certain goals, both short term and long term for the team. For example, short term goals may be to play at the 18u level all tourney season long to get ready for, and do well in the 16u division of ASA Nationals. Long term could be something along the lines of getting every player recruited that wishes to play in college and the best way to do that IMO is to make them the best player they can be.

With that being said, the coaches should have discussed with the parents what these goals are and the reasoning behind playing up. It's a very fine line between self-confidence and self-destruction for a team. As some have said, losing, especially by big numbers, can often times lead to the habit of losing. As long as the team and the parents know, understand and buy into the reasoning behind this consistent butt whipping, the habit forming shouldn't happen.

Thank you for this perspective. To be completely transparent, coaches did tell us that this strategy would be painful in the short-term. They told us that playing this level will give us the tools we need to come back to our area (Pacific NW) and be competitive. Coaches firmly believe that by having us travel and play such elite teams (we did Surf City last weekend, as an example), our girls see what they want to be, and will push themselves to excel. Coaches told us that it's a way to fast-track our girls and their training, because they don't always take instruction well from coaches, but they sure pick up on things that mentors (ie, other girls) are doing. They weren't secretive about it, but I do think that somehow we all thought, as parents tend to do, that our girls would be, well, better. We parents and our rose colored glasses, right?

We also have girls of varying levels of play and ability, so while there are some who could hang, it becomes a tough order when the rest can't keep up - or God forbid, when the top tier girls have an "off" day and can't carry their normal weight. Then it's all about, "I failed my team" kind of stuff. Coaches have told us that this mental struggle, too, is part of the process of doing this - for girls to learn to accept responsibility for doing their jobs and be accountable. Our coach told #2 pitcher that he wished she would be a little more demanding of her team, and make them step up when she's throwing well and they aren't doing their jobs. As a young lady who tends to be on the wild side, she is in no position to criticize anyone - because today's "throwing well" might just as easily have been yesterday's "drilled 7 batters." Did I mention she's learning I/R? LOL That's another story entirely . . .

They have absolutely improved; the gaps of the butt-kicking are closing, and we're definitely showing signs of "getting it" as we continue to struggle. But it's still a butt-kicking at the end of the game. Our #2 & #3 pitchers are being forced to step up (which is good, because WAY too much pressure is placed on #1, and she got hurt last weekend) and learning to hold their own. Again, they were both playing B last year, and one (my DD) has only pitched for 18 months; 12 months of those as pick-up #3 pitcher on a B team. She's very athletic, but has very little circle time when it counts, having played mostly rec and pool games. There is something very valuable about circle time - but dang, it stings to get yarded by a Firecracker that wants to beat your face. Man, those Firecracker girls have swag! Every at-bat, they seem to say to the pitcher: "Girl, step up, or step out" . . . The good side of this? My DD has decided that she can throw with swag, too. Maybe that's the point? I'd post a picture because it's the coolest evolution of pitcher face, but she'd kill me.

Anyway, we're all-in now so I won't ever back out of a commitment I made - as I think DD needs to see that we finish what we start, and she's has been through enough with teams imploding and girls getting weird. I feel pretty validated by these comments from you all, and as always - I've been given a lot to think about. I don't know if I'll have any available credit on my visa to go through this next year, when we can stay home and take a butt-whooping. Thanks, everyone!

 

[Otto]

- so I have to ask what you all think about ALWAYS playing "up"?


Edit: We haven't lost EVERY game 22-0, there have been closer ones (8-2ish, 9-1, 12-6) but very rarely do we score more than a few runs against these high level pitchers, and once our fielding gets away from us (or our pitching goes off the rails) we have several walks and then a big ol' bat drills one over the fence and we gotta grand slam . . . 3 of them happened last weekend in CA. Ouch.

Just some more food for thought Me &MBM. It has already been established that there is little to be gained by beating up on inferior oppponants. Keep in mind that once you get rolled by double digits a couple of times, the competition adapts.

Take into account that after a couple of out-of-your-league type floggings, you are likely to face teams' bottom rung pitchers, in hopes that the game is maybe a better use of the other their time. Losing by a more narrow margin on the scorebook might reflect a false sense of stepping up to the competition vs the competition cooling their jets. Stay in tune to this when you are evaluating whether playing up and out of state is making the team better, or if you are wasting time and money receiving charity/mercy.

Also, is playing an elite 16u schedule making YOUR particular first year 14 team better than playing a good A schedule closer to home would? That is the real question. You (the team) have to honestly and realistically evaluate this for yourself. Godspeed!

 

[RichK]

My two cents:

- doesn't make sense to travel (and spend BIG money) to get your butts kicked when -- depending on where you live -- you could have the same lessons taught close to home

- I think playing at your level, plus maybe one step, is the best approach (or I'd argue the only approach). Part of what I'd argue is that you CAN start at the very bottom, and if you leave yourself enough runway, take this entire path. But if you're on step 1 at 14U, maybe not so much : )

Again, depending on where you live there's a clear ladder to climb:

1. Town team
2. B Travel team
3. Win some B tournaments
4. Try to consistently win at B+ level (perhaps maybe USSSSA) and go to a second tier nationals and fare well
5. Move up to a solid A level. ASA A, PGF regional or futures. Work to compete, probably get beat but start to surprise.
6. By now you should be approaching college exposure age. Play some second tier college exposures. Start to work into second day of bigger A tournaments, make some semis. Trade out bottom third of roster for better players. Sorry, that's reality and now's the time.
7. Go full on ASA Gold, PGF Premier, Boulder, top-level exposure, St. Louis, Fla Rising Stars, etc.,etc. -- IF you can get compete and/or get invited. The earlier you can get there age-wise, the better. Get there by 14U to have D1 options; by 16U for mid-major D1, or even by 18U for Division 3 (ie, the dream is never over until it's over)
8. Girls get signed : )
9. Start over with your younger daughter, help coach a program team as a volunteer, take what you learned, get an earlier start, accelerate the process, do better second time around!

Stopping your improvement progress at any level while continuing to age up-- ie, play B ball as a freshman in high school-- is a recipe for an early end to the softball career.

Jumping up too many levels at once, like going all the way to level 7 when you should be at 4 or 5 sounds painful and I'm not sure very constructive in the end, and probably destructive to a lot of girls that would have fared well with a slow and steady leveling up.

 

[wichita]

Your coaches are a bit extreme IMO nothing good can come of getting slaughtered in every game. That being said I do believe in playing up but in your case with mostly B ball players from the previous year there are plenty 14 U A teams that will give your team more than a hand full. So in my opinion I would play in top notch 14U tournaments and in a sense your still playing up in talent just not age wise until your team improves and can consistently really compete with these teams then move up in age at that point .

My DD'S 14U teams payed up to 16U but they were a hand picked team for the most part and we could beat some of the teams we were playing at 16U so it was a little different. So play up in talent not necessarily in age is what I would be doing.

 

[WaSpeed02]

Our girls will be playing up @ 14A a few times this year, so you better hope these out-of-state experiences made your girls better. If we beat you again, I promise I will never let you hear the end of it.

 

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

Our girls will be playing up @ 14A a few times this year, so you better hope these out-of-state experiences made your girls better. If we beat you again, I promise I will never let you hear the end of it.

My DD wasn't part of the team last year, so I'm talking no smack. I'm just gonna hide and watch. And for the record, I sure as heck hope this all pays off, too.

 

[njx2]

Putting in my 2 cents

Our girls (14u) are a first year, mostly '01 team. Most of them (with the exception of 3) only played B ball in 12U. My DD is in her 2nd year of playing softball at all. We are a team of scrappers and girls who go hard, but we have a lot to learn. We can hold our own locally, but we aren't the best in our region. We are an A level first year team, and I'm proud of that fact. My DD is still learning the game, and she's pushing like crazy to make progress.
.

If your girl's first year 14u team is being paired up and thrown into tournaments against 16u girls, it can absolutely be intimidating. When I played 14u, I was on a team with all girls my age playing against girls my age (and of course a first baseman who I could see eye to eye with while on base..lol) The point is, 14u should be a great time in your DD's career. It's all still about learning and having fun. Once she reaches 16u, and if she chooses to continue playing, the race to be seen by scouts begins. Now should be the time to get confident and be on a winning team. As you said, she comes home from these tournaments thinking "we suck" because of the constant loses. My fear for your girl is that she will get tired of losing, and possibly give up on the game. However, I could be totally wrong. If she is having fun on a team with all her friends and you think the coaches are onto something, that could change things. I would just be cautious.

 

[CoachKevin]

LOL did you guys read where they are from the PNW? During the Winter months, there are NO games to be had locally. Many teams travel to CA, NV, AZ for Tournaments during the Winter. IMO if you play up during the Fall/Winter months, that will make you better when Spring/Summer rolls around. Now if the Coaches keep travelling during the Summer with the same results, then yes a bad idea as there are plenty of A Teams in the local area to give you the competition.

 

[inthunder]

Playing up against better competetion helps lesser experienced teams see what it takes to make that next step up. Many times that is simply age, sometimes its work ethic and committment. You should not have to travel constantly to get run ruled though, however out of town trips are wonderful for team bonding and can absolutely change a team. These young ladies change so quickly at this age that you can see big improvements from Spring to the Fall. I like to set short term and long term goals and communicate those goals to parents so we are on the same page. Teams have to win for confidence, but playing down to win lots of tournaments is worse to me as it really does not push the team to achieve and better themselves.