Pitch tracking from stands

[curt.shelley]

I understand your view, but it isn't supported by those two quoted rules. They don't say anything about information being relayed to the dugout, just that the coaches/players have to be on the field or dugout.

I think what we're talking about is more about softball etiquette or politeness, not hard/fast rules. Example, what if the ump caught a parent doing exactly what we're discussing, what would be the penalty? An out? An ejection?

Also, I see your point about 10U plastic trophies. But, what about High School playoffs? What about 16U/18U tournament play? The $7 ring isn't the point of playing the best you can, it's the possible exposure to a college coach or the elimination from the $400+ tournament or addition to the player's resume or to just play the best you can for your teammates. Now, the stuff just got real...

 

[marriard]

I understand your view, but it isn't supported by those two quoted rules. They don't say anything about information being relayed to the dugout, just that the coaches/players have to be on the field or dugout.

I think what we're talking about is more about softball etiquette or politeness, not hard/fast rules. Example, what if the ump caught a parent doing exactly what we're discussing, what would be the penalty? An out? An ejection?

Also, I see your point about 10U plastic trophies. But, what about High School playoffs? What about 16U/18U tournament play? The $7 ring isn't the point of playing the best you can, it's the possible exposure to a college coach or the elimination from the $400+ tournament or addition to the player's resume or to just play the best you can for your teammates. Now, the stuff just got real...

Sorry, yes it is. The rules and case books are VERY clear on this. There is no argument here or grey area for you to try and interpret what is being said or try to read into something that isn't there. There are additional rules and definitions in most of the rule sets to back it up about mainly about who is officially a team member but in these two sets these are the specific rules that cover this at its core. No - we are not talking about unwritten rules - this is covered VERY specifically in all the rule books.

The penalty is in most rulesets is a team warning for the first offense, then next offense is a restrictions to dugout for the offender and then eventual ejection from the facility. Eventual forfeit I guess would be possible but I have never seen it go beyond the team warning.

BTW, stuff didn't get real. If you are the parent of a player and you are doing this sort of stupid bush league stuff you will be appropriately made fun of. Most 16U/18U parents know how to behave by the time their child is in these divisions. Not all, but most. The ones that don't negatively effect how their kid gets recruited. It would also negatively effect the reputation of a team doing it - which again effects everything around them. The softball community is small - everyone knows.

 

[curt.shelley]

Just because you find the behavior underhand, doesn’t make it illegal. The USSSA rule you’re referring to doesn’t state relaying information to the dugout at all. It does extensively list many behaviors that would be “conduct unbecoming or abusive”, but it doesn’t list giving information to the dugout as one. The only reference that is close is about “unsporting behavior”.

I’m not trying to say that pitch spotting or radar results being given to the dugout isn’t sneaky, but isn’t that what part of this game is? Stealing bases, trying to get the pitcher to throw out a runner going to 2nd while there’s a runner on 3rd, mixing up pitches…

OK, let’s pretend a spectator is watching behind the fence and remarks, “Wow, look how far back the outfield is today”. The Coach overhears and then makes corrections based on that observation. Would all that be illegal? Its information the Coach didn’t have prior to.

Not trying to start an argument, just commenting that the published USSSA rules don’t specifically state you can’t rely information to the dugout. If you have the second set of additional rules, please let me know where I can find them. I’d like to expand my understanding so as to not cause an infraction.

 

[55dad]

Threads like this make it worth dropping by to read the board.

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[Gtrips07]

Yes...

USSSA Rule 11, Sec 2, J
RULE 11. SPORTING BEHAVIOR
Sec 2.A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:
J.Be outside the designated dugout/bench or bullpen areas unless they are a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach’s box or one of the nine players on defense.

If you are charting pitches and relaying that information for use by the coaches, you are bench personnel or a coach or other participant and must be in the dugout. If you are just doing it for later use, probably not going to be an issue but the moment you relay this information during a game it is...

Where is the definitions does it say that providing this information makes you a coach? And the rule also seems to point specifically to team staff and not a parent.

This happens quite a bit and not just in 10u..

I would think this would be specifically addressed if it was a rule and would state doing so makes you a member of the coaching staff.


I'm not a lawyer but typically if something is not defined or spelled on in rule interpretations then it is not a rule..



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[marriard]

Where is the definitions does it say that providing this information makes you a coach? And the rule also seems to point specifically to team staff and not a parent.
This happens quite a bit and not just in 10u..
I would think this would be specifically addressed if it was a rule and would state doing so makes you a member of the coaching staff.
I'm not a lawyer but typically if something is not defined or spelled on in rule interpretations then it is not a rule..

Just because you find the behavior underhand, doesn’t make it illegal. The USSSA rule you’re referring to doesn’t state relaying information to the dugout at all. It does extensively list many behaviors that would be “conduct unbecoming or abusive”, but it doesn’t list giving information to the dugout as one. The only reference that is close is about “unsporting behavior”.

I’m not trying to say that pitch spotting or radar results being given to the dugout isn’t sneaky, but isn’t that what part of this game is? Stealing bases, trying to get the pitcher to throw out a runner going to 2nd while there’s a runner on 3rd, mixing up pitches…

OK, let’s pretend a spectator is watching behind the fence and remarks, “Wow, look how far back the outfield is today”. The Coach overhears and then makes corrections based on that observation. Would all that be illegal? Its information the Coach didn’t have prior to.
Not trying to start an argument, just commenting that the published USSSA rules don’t specifically state you can’t rely information to the dugout. If you have the second set of additional rules, please let me know where I can find them. I’d like to expand my understanding so as to not cause an infraction.

I am going to address both these. None of this is because I think this is underhanded, but because the original scenario is covered (i.e. pitch tracking, going to dugout to provide said pitch tracking details in-game). Maybe my using the term "relaying information to the dugout" is throwing you off (that term does not exist in the rule book) and not the best way to get my point across - but it is one of the things an umpire is using to determine is someone is basically going to fall under team/bench personnel and the rules around that.

I am going NFHS rule book because that is the easiest to pull things from. USSSA has similar:

Rule 2-17 Defines the dugout as the place for team/bench personnel to locate
Rule 2-59 defines team personnel including bench personnel. It is pretty broad probably intentionally but basically if you are actively participating in the contest you either part of the team or an official and are subject to the rules as such.
Rule 10-1-1 Gives the umpires the authority to order participants to refrain from doing things.
Rule 3-6-13(c) This covers sportsman like acts not in the spirit of fair play. I don't believe you need this rule to cover this, but it certainly could be argued. I am sure I missed a rule that would further define the situation... but this is plenty.
Rule 3-6-6 Is the prime one as discussed. There is several cases in the NHFS that address the location of team personnel - while what they someone may be doing may make them team personnel, this rule says if you are by definition team personnel, you cannot be out of the dugout/officially defined areas. It doesn't matter if you are just sitting there - if you are defined as team personnel you can't be there.
3.6.6 SITUATION A:
Team A has one of its players or team personnel in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third-base line.
RULING: All members, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or designated warm-up area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in a coach's box, or a player on defense. The umpire shall issue a team warning to the coach involved and the next offender on that team shall be restricted to the dugout/bench area. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.
3.6.6 SITUATION D:
The umpire notices in the stands behind home plate a: (a) coach, player or other bench personnel; (b) fan; or (c) college scout using a radar gun.
RULING: In (a), this is illegal. In (b) and (c) this is legal.

Sitting there tracking pitches on some clipboard or tablet and then going over to the dugout during the game and communicating this information makes you bench or team personnel. It isn't random. You are clearly participating and therefore are team personnel and the rules are very clear on where team personnel have to be and the penalties associated with this.

It is much different than someone in the stand yelling out something at some random point even if a coach hears it and uses that information.

They had to add Rule 1-8-6 to specifically disallows use of electronic equipment outside the dugout for coaching purposes. This one mainly came about because technically a video feed isn't team/bench personnel and someone came out with the great idea of getting feeds from behind the plate into their dugouts during the game because it wasn't in the rule book that they couldn't. By the way this covers your radar gun scenario above - it is illegal and same penalty - team warning/restriction to dugout second offense/forfeit if you keep doing it. Yes I have had to warn a team because some idiot was hand signalling pitch speeds to the coaches - not that they could REALLY do anything with that info but it is illegal activity.

Note: This next bit has nothing to do with the rules above.
I am not sure where you are and that you are seeing it 'happen quite a bit' but that is truly sad. I haven't had to directly deal with this as a coach or umpire past the wild west of 10U - maybe the occasional 12U. I see lots of scouting for future games at all levels, but most coaches don't want to deal with parents trying to 'help them coach' during the game. I know when I am coaching I have zero interest in input outside the other coaches and players.

If you want to actively participate in the game then go be a coach. Spectators are not active participants - trying to insert yourself into the game is obnoxious. Don't be that parent. Hell, there is no reason to be on 'that team' either.

Trying to find loopholes and ways around rules is why the rule books always end up so bloated with having to address situations that the current rules don't cover directly. Remember the shoe extension Cal used to try to avoid illegal pitching back in 2015. Yep, there is now a specific rule definition change to define what is and isn't part of your shoe. Optic yellow uniform colors being banned - yep someone decided optic yellow to try and 'hide the ball' was a good idea.

This loophole finding isn't new of course - the 'infield fly rule' originated in 1895 to stop intentional drops of fly balls to get cheap double plays.

Right now I umpire 2 sports regularly and 1 occasionally. Between those 3 sports I have 10 different rule books I am am expected to know in great detail. I have 7 rule case books. I get roughly 10-12 emails each week from various umpire associations on rule interpretations normally covering something weird that happened recently. This discussion is nowhere near as contentious as it would be when umpires have similar discussions. Trying to keep it straight can be a real job - I have several cheat sheets I use within the sports I go over before walking onto a field to make sure my head is in the right rule set. I also have a quick guide in my umpires scorebook for some of the common differences. Fun stuff.

 

[Greatdaytobeawildcat]

Instead of pitch location/movement, how about pitch speed via radar during intra-inning warmup? Still illegal, or only pitch location during the inning?

As a 10U coach, what would I do with pitch speed information?

"Thanks, Tim, my eyes were telling me she's coming in at high 40's, but your behind the fence pocket radar not on a tripod fat fingered warmup pitch confirmation that she's slinging 48 is super helpful. I'll tell the girls who also have eyes to move 30cm back. You just won us the game buddy."

 

[Gags]

For us, scorekeeping (Gamechanger and paper backup) has been done by the parents. There were a few times when I would relay previous hit locations - don't think it ever impacted the game, but now that I'm back in the dugout, looks like I can't ask for that information either.

Marriard - thanks for the rules clarification.

 

[marriard]

For us, scorekeeping (Gamechanger and paper backup) has been done by the parents. There were a few times when I would relay previous hit locations - don't think it ever impacted the game, but now that I'm back in the dugout, looks like I can't ask for that information either.

Marriard - thanks for the rules clarification.

Technically the scorekeeper should be in the dugout and HS/College it is normally isn't an issue as either there is an assigned scorekeeper in an official score booth or someone in the dugout is responsible. I hate to say it because it does go against a lot of the above, but in travel, a scorekeeper just outside the dugout conveying a scorebook historical event from a past at-bat probably isn't going to be blinked at by anyone.

 

[Gtrips07]

Per my local USSSA rep, there is no rule against a parent providing info to the coach.

I quote:

"Coaching info from parents. You are correct there is nothing against a parent telling a coach what they see or hear. Just one of those things."

It appears high school is different as it is specifically covered .

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