Pitch counts in softball?

[Scorekeeper]

I like the idea of increased education, but IMO any pitch count limitation wouldn't be arbitrary. Or at least it shouldn't be; it should be based on actual scientific research. That said...

What makes you believe entities like ASMI haven’t based their recommendations on “actual scientific research”? Do you think those people pulled the numbers out of their butts?

This ^^^

The one size fits all approach is only useful when all are average, which is never.

The limits are only mandatory on the high end, so how is it that they’re “only useful when all are average”?

LL has pitch counts to supposedly protect the kids from overuse injuries, but IMO it's purely to cover their butts legally. DS plays LL, and there is zero education offered to coaches or parents regarding overuse, what it is, how to identify it, and what to do about it. Compare that to concussion training and education and to me it's clear: if there actually is an overuse problem in softball, it's not being addressed.

You’re certainly entitle to your opinion, but to say the only reason PC limitations were put into play was to cover their butts legally sure seems like a huge stretch. That’s saying no one had any thoughts about safety.

IMO pitch counts will be implemented simply because it's the least complex "solution." Just cruising through the OSU library online, I can find very little research on softball at all and even less on pitching specifically. What is there is mostly kinesiology-based. Not very helpful when you need a long term study of pitching arm/shoulder injuries tied to number of pitches thrown.

How can anyone do the kind of study you want when there’s no way to get a valid number of pitches?

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

2nd, how would coaches and parents circumvent the requirement, and more importantly, why would they do that?

Simple: don't/under report.

Why? To keep their #1 going all weekend.

Reexamine the "one size fits all" issue - it's completely unrealistic. Even if you found the mean pitch count for a given age that would significantly reduce overuse injuries, you're probably not capturing even a majority of possibly affected players. The stats would fall out a little oddly, but every girl whose individual overuse limit fell below the mean would be in potential jeopardy of injury. For certain the 13% >2 SD's below the mean would be at serious risk if they pitched to the allowable count. If we toss the outliers (a valid approach), then we're talking about nearly 50% of the girls being at risk.

I don't hate or love counts, but I'm convinced their more of a legal maneuver than a protection device.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Simple: don't/under report.

Your assumption is that it would be the coaches doing the reporting. What if it was someone else?

Why? To keep their #1 going all weekend.

I get that, but why? What you seem to be saying is they’d do it to win at all costs.

Reexamine the "one size fits all" issue - it's completely unrealistic. Even if you found the mean pitch count for a given age that would significantly reduce overuse injuries, you're not capturing even a majority of possibly affected players. The stats would fall out a little oddly, but every girl whose individual overuse limit fell below the mean would be in potential jeopardy of injury. For certain the 13% >2 SD's below the mean would be at serious risk if they pitched to the allowable count. If we toss the outliers (a valid approach), then we're talking about nearly 50% of the girls being at risk.

I’ll agree that PC limits wouldn’t stop overuse injuries, but how can you not be in favor of limiting injury even if it was only to 50% of the girls?

I don't hate or love counts, but I'm convinced their more of a legal maneuver than a protection device.

I see you’ve changed your position from PCs being put in as being “purely to cover their butts legally” to it being “more of a legal maneuver than a protection device”. If it is a legal maneuver to protect themselves, why hasn’t every entity installed them for that protection?

 

[riseball]

In the case of LL the implementation was done under the guise of safety although it is safe to assume that there was some input from their corporate counsel. However, the real reason for pitch counts was to steer the game to fit their dogma of spreading the playing time around. LL is not a competitive program, it is community recreation and as such it is all about opportunities for any kid who wants it. There are no tryouts, you write a check, get a uniform, and you are placed on a team. Most of the coaches and parents are blissfully ignorant and a good time is had by all. At the end of the season you get a cupcake, juice box, and trophy. Not saying that is a bad thing as it is the inroad to the sport for many a kid. LL is not by any means perfect, but it serves a purpose.

But do not think for a minute that what goes on in LL somehow is a model for competitive programs. They are different as night and day. Which is why the idea of a national registry for pitch counts is pure folly. Competitive programs thrive on autonomy and do not want or need the well thought out advice from the proponents of the nanny state. I will look out for my pitchers, and you take care of yours. Granted as in any athletic endeavor some kids will get wrecked due to stupidity of others, and while unfortunate that it is not my or your problem to solve. When it is all said and done it is parents responsibility to keep their kids from harm. In the case of pitching all it takes is some minimal education. If you can read and work a computer you have more than enough resources to get the job done.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

My 1st question is, what do you mean by “complete info”? All that’s needed would be a player ID#, a date, and the number of pitches thrown.

"Complete info" is getting all pitch counts recorded and aggregated under a single account for every player. Non-reporting and/or creation of multiple player accounts by different teams would result in incomplete info for players.

2nd, how would coaches and parents circumvent the requirement, and more importantly, why would they do that?

As previously mentioned, circumvention can be done by under-reporting, non-reporting and/or reporting on a separate account so their info isn't aggregated with info from other teams. Reasons? They don't understand and/or agree with the program, so they cheat on it like they do rosters.

I don’t understand why you people who hate PCs so much can’t/won’t accept that there’s no reason the education you want would stop if PC limits were put in place. After years of debating this subject, the only reason I see all the resistance and animosity is the fear of coaches that they’re somehow losing control.

I don't hate PCs - I just recognize their limitations and the absurdity of your proposed system.

I posted a link to FP pitch count limits put together by sports medicine professionals and encourage people to understand them. I expect they are on the conservative side so they don't get sued by people that are injured after following them. Exceeding them doesn't doom the player to an injury, however the risk increases as the #pitches increases and the more often it is done.

 

[mothgirl]

Why is it so blamed important that a rec ball pitcher pitch more innings? Rec ball should be about giving as many kids as many opportunities as possible, not creating Jennie Finch.

I think what they meant was not enough pitchers are getting the reps.
What I saw in rec ball was one girl getting to pitch. The others didn't even get a chance unless that other girl was out sick. How are you supposed to develop pitchers if they don't pitch?

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Your assumption is that it would be the coaches doing the reporting. What if it was someone else?

It won't be. In LL it's the coaches, and LL has more money to spend than any other stick and ball org (probably, I'm actually guessing there) for enforcement.

I get that, but why? What you seem to be saying is they’d do it to win at all costs.

What I'm actually saying is that, and as riseball has stated: coaches know their players better than some arbitrary (or non-arbitrary) "one size fits all" number. If the HC feels that the pitch count is artificially low for a specific pitcher, he'll be far more inclined to ignore it.

I’ll agree that PC limits wouldn’t stop overuse injuries, but how can you not be in favor of limiting injury even if it was only to 50% of the girls?

To put it another way: why are you in favor of limiting protection to only 50% of the girls? Education of parents and coaches, similar to the concussion education that is mandatory just about everywhere now, spreads the protection to far more than 50%. And we currently have no way of knowing what the counts should be, it would be a WAG (wild a$$ guess).

I see you’ve changed your position from PCs being put in as being “purely to cover their butts legally” to it being “more of a legal maneuver than a protection device”. If it is a legal maneuver to protect themselves, why hasn’t every entity installed them for that protection?

Not at all, and you're cherry picking my words. I said believed that LL did it to avoid legal issues. And I am convinced that it is more of a legal concern than a safety concern for the organizations who use them. The positions are not exclusive of each other, nor are they contradictory. But I'll concede that riseball makes an even better case: LL pitch counts encourage participation. But even that might fall under a legal concern: think there's never been a lawsuit regarding playing time? Happens all the time. Regardless, I've yet to see the research that shows all 11-12yo pitchers can throw 85 pitches every four days without concern for overuse injury.

Why hasn't everyone done it? Same reason McDonalds has a million lawyers and Jose's Taco Cart has none: who has the more to protect?

 

[Scorekeeper]

riseball,

Judging by the continuous worry about “nanny” ruining everyone’s life and your idea that somehow there’s absolutely no need to worry about pitchers in competitive programs, even if they’re in a destructive environment, I can see there’s no way you’ll ever change your “mind your own business” mind.

 

[Scorekeeper]

"Complete info" is getting all pitch counts recorded and aggregated under a single account for every player. Non-reporting and/or creation of multiple player accounts by different teams would result in incomplete info for players.

Why would a player need a different account for different teams? The whole purpose of unique ID#s is that there would only be one ID# for every player. FI, if Susie’s ID# was 875, it wouldn’t matter if she was 9YO pitching in LLI or 22 pitching for USC. All of her date would be under the ID# 875.

As previously mentioned, circumvention can be done by under-reporting, non-reporting and/or reporting on a separate account so their info isn't aggregated with info from other teams. Reasons? They don't understand and/or agree with the program, so they cheat on it like they do rosters.

As I noted earlier, if the coaches were left out of the process, how could there be under or non-reporting, and as I said above, there’s absolutely no reason for multiple accounts for the same player.

I don't hate PCs - I just recognize their limitations and the absurdity of your proposed system.

I recognize their limitations as well, but I see no reason why the thought of a national registry is absurd if you understand much at all about relational database management. I’ve been doing that myself for almost 40 years.

I posted a link to FP pitch count limits put together by sports medicine professionals and encourage people to understand them. I expect they are on the conservative side so they don't get sued by people that are injured after following them.

Who do you think put together the BB pitch count recommendations?

Exceeding them doesn't doom the player to an injury, however the risk increases as the #pitches increases and the more often it is done.

That’s all anyone’s ever said. Why is it such an anathema to so many people?

 

[Scorekeeper]

I think what they meant was not enough pitchers are getting the reps.
What I saw in rec ball was one girl getting to pitch. The others didn't even get a chance unless that other girl was out sick. How are you supposed to develop pitchers if they don't pitch?

If not enough pitchers are getting reps in rec ball, there’s definitely something wrong, prolly that the coaches are out to win at all costs not develop anyone. Chances are that happens when the coach doesn’t know how to develop players, and in this case know how to teach pitching.