Opinions on attacking the lead elbow

[RayR]

Rich,

try throwing bats. Also, I would try throwing medicine balls using 2 hands throwing underhand. Can't spin and throw a med ball. Have her try throwing the ball as high and as far as she can. Then have her take a couple of swings then throw more bats and med balls then take some swings.

Thanks for the responses to my question on this girl, FFS you are getting at what I am trying to pick up here--how do you treat a back-leg spinner? I have a girl we're going to start working with soon on our team that has a hip turn (ie, her hips aren't dead) but "leaks" out the backside by spinning rather than shifting that weight "into" the swing.

My thought is to just start her from scratch and rather than "unlearn" or "fix" something try to build her up properly from the ground up.

I guess I'm wondering and anticipating how hard it is going to be to unlearn that spin move and maybe some ideas on how to break it.

In the fall, we put a block behind her foot, but her first mental image and body move was to try a linear move to clear it -- not what we want obviously.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris,

Look in the mirror - you are applying a band aid to a gushing wound...her lower body was her biggest issue.

And you really need to read better. I did not say stop the spinning and her swing would be great. I wrote this:

the main issue of not using her lower half correctly.

And the fact that you can't see she has spinning issues (debatable was your word) illustrates your lack of understanding of a how a good lower body should work...

So you're just going to ignore the plane issues? How her posture is completely inappropriate given the height of the tee?

How she has to pop up through the start of rotation to get her shoulders on plane?

How she hunches over rather than bending over at the hips?

How the bat launches at too step of an angle for the high tee position?

How she hits from the top, which is an indication of an inefficient, slow, top down swing?

Her swing is less efficient because of all the plane and posture issues, not because of the lower body.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks for the responses to my question on this girl, FFS you are getting at what I am trying to pick up here--how do you treat a back-leg spinner? I have a girl we're going to start working with soon on our team that has a hip turn (ie, her hips aren't dead) but "leaks" out the backside by spinning rather than shifting that weight "into" the swing.

My thought is to just start her from scratch and rather than "unlearn" or "fix" something try to build her up properly from the ground up.

I guess I'm wondering and anticipating how hard it is going to be to unlearn that spin move and maybe some ideas on how to break it.

In the fall, we put a block behind her foot, but her first mental image and body move was to try a linear move to clear it -- not what we want obviously.

Good description … the hips aren’t dead … but they certainly leak.

Two major ‘feels’ that need to be ‘felt’. One ‘feel’ is the clockwise (this girl is a right-handed hitter) feel at the back foot. The other ‘feel’ is that of feel at the rear hip, on top of the rear upper leg (femur).

I had four new girls this weekend that were all were all taught to “spin” … so I can sympathize with your issue.

Their ASA coach came over during their hitting session and apologized to them during the hitting session … saying that the “squishing the bug” that he taught them was wrong.

Look at the video clip below. This is BM demonstrating the initial ‘feel’.

Let’s look at this from two perspectives … the perspective from both ends of the rear leg.

First … let’s look at it from the perspective of the top of the rear leg … the rear hip and rear femur.

As BM “winds”, or “coils”, the rear hip turns backwards while the rear femur attempts to remain stable. This is “Internal Rotation” of the rear hip. When BM “unwinds”, or “uncoils”, the rear hip turns in the direction to make contact with the ball. This is “External Rotation” of the rear hip. IMO, you want your hitters to place an imaginary “feel senser” in their rear hip and feel this. You want them to feel “Internal Rotation” and “External Rotation” of the rear hip.

You also, IMO anyway, want to make sure your hitter is “feeling” the action at the bottom of her rear leg ... at her rear foot.

Continue to repeat the process. As BM coils, there is a pressure on his rear foot that exhibits a force of the foot with the ground. This force directs a pressure that has the foot feeling as if it would turn “clockwise” (BM is right handed). This force basically has a 'pivot point' in terms of being located at the 'inside ball of the rear foot' ... which is why we often 'set the screw' as we enter the batter's box ... so as to emphasize a pressure sensation at the inside ball of our rear foot. The clockwise force continues to build during the “coil”. This clockwise force doesn’t “reverse” during the “uncoil”, but continues to exhibit the same clockwise force during the “uncoil”.

Get that feel … the feel at both ends of the leg. Stop thinking in terms of trying to Internally Rotate the rear leg … but instead get the feel on both ends of the rear leg. Take care of both ends of the rear leg, and you’ll get the correct internal rotation of the rear leg.

 

[RayR]

Maybe her sub optimal lower body created the upper body you see?

Her lower body is affecting her posture. Of course, I would address her posture, but until the lower body works better it's like spitting in the wind.

Yeah, I would keep the tee high - a better lower body is more of a thrust with the rear upper leg.

Chris, watch the older gent again and how quickly the club head comes around. This is a lower effort throw.

Then watch the girl as she works very hard to swing the bat.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Maybe her sub optimal lower body created the upper body you see?

How exactly?

Her upper body setup and posture is flawed before the lower body tries to do anything.

Chris, watch the older gent again and how quickly the club head comes around. This is a lower effort throw.

Then watch the girl as she works very hard to swing the bat.

What you see her doing is fighting and fighting to get everything on plane since everything sets up out of plane.

That takes tremendous strength and time.

The more and the sooner everything gets on plane, the more the lower body can work to create bat speed.

The less and longer it takes to get everything on plane, the more the lower body has to work to get everything on plane.

 

[RayR]

You mean you think that how one prepares to do anything has NO influence on how they set up? It's all by accident?

If you want to jump high - you don't set up differently then if you wanted to jump far?

If you are hitting fungoes to the OF - you start setting up the same way as if you were hitting grounders?

How exactly?

Her upper body setup and posture is flawed before the lower body tries to do anything.




What you see her doing is fighting and fighting to get everything on plane since everything sets up out of plane.

That takes tremendous strength and time.

The more and the sooner everything gets on plane, the more the lower body can work to create bat speed.

The less and longer it takes to get everything on plane, the more the lower body has to work to get everything on plane.

 

[RayR]

And I guess you don't really understand the idea of flattening to the swing plane as you swing? You are a believer of presetting the swing plane? But, how do you know where it's going to be if it is not sitting on a tee?

I guess I answered my own question as you don't believe the hands should be doing anything but dragged around by the shouders, correct?

How exactly?

Her upper body setup and posture is flawed before the lower body tries to do anything.




What you see her doing is fighting and fighting to get everything on plane since everything sets up out of plane.

That takes tremendous strength and time.

The more and the sooner everything gets on plane, the more the lower body can work to create bat speed.

The less and longer it takes to get everything on plane, the more the lower body has to work to get everything on plane.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

And I guess you don't really understand the idea of flattening to the swing plane as you swing? You are a believer of presetting the swing plane? But, how do you know where it's going to be if it is not sitting on a tee?

I guess I answered my own question as you don't believe the hands should be doing anything but dragged around by the shouders, correct?

Good hitters do not hunch over to pre-set the swing plane.

Instead, they bend at the hips like this.

At launch, they drop the bat down into the plane of the shoulders because the shoulders set the swing plane.

Right now, when she sets up, she does so in 3 or 4 different planes, and it takes time and energy to bring those planes into alignment.

Good hitters launch the swing with everything much closer to in the same plane. That lets the hips generate bat speed rather than pulling everything into plane.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

And I guess you don't really understand the idea of flattening to the swing plane as you swing?

No good hitter flattens the swing plane as they swing, because that burns energy that could otherwise be be used to generate bat speed.

Instead, they drop the bat into plane just as they are about to launch the swing.

Like this...

Notice how Bonds sets up with his bat up and out of plane but how he drops it down into a parallel plane to the shoulders in the instant before he starts his swing.

 

[RayR]

Yup, AP's hands are flattening before his hands come forward...I'm convinced.