Opinions from Experienced Dads needed.

[Hillhouse]

Was going to bite my lip here but...

I disagree with sjss's statement that success of the screwball has made people rethink. The only thing that it's made me rethink is that the hitting is getting worse. These are not screwballs, they are inside pitches. Stepping to the left and throwing inside is not a breaking pitch. As I've said before, and I still believe it, saying these are screwballs is like saying someone in slowpitch has a riseball because they throw the ball upward. The fact that so many hitters get out on these inside pitches adds to my argument that hitters are becoming so MECHANICAL in their swing that they are not taught how to read pitchers and react accordingly. Instead, they spend so much time working on the "pefect swing" they forget they need to learn how to hit the ball.

Now, I consider myself a pretty decent pitcher and I'm going to say this next statement as a pitcher, not as a pitching coach. Based on the way these girls are taught to throw screwballs, step far to the left, turn the wrist clockwise, follow through outside the line of the body, etc. I'm in disbelief that they can throw 60-70mph doing this. I know I certainly cannot. Every time I've tried, not only did it feel so weird but the speed was that of a change up for me. The FEMALE top pitcher, speed wise, Ueno is throwing low 70's. She's doing this by SNAPPING her wrist and elbow, not twisting it in the manner screwballs are thrown. Yet, these screwball pitchers are only losing 5-7mph from Ueno?????? Are we really to believe these are screwballs when so much unnatural movements are being done and yet they maintain the 60+ mph speed? Again, this screwball rage and phenomenon is more about ESPN hype, who's announcers dumb down the game to the point where anything thrown inside is a screwball and that it seems so "vogue" to step way outside the 24" rubber for some reason. I'm hardly a genius but I just don't understand why I'd want to step sideways when I'm trying to throw the ball forwards. Yet, this seems to make sense to some people because these people on TV do it. Yet, the best pitchers in the world (Ueno and Osterman) do not. Baffling.

Izzy's dad, you're friend is right, partly. A lot of colleges are going to "tweak" the pitcher to do things "their way". And some of it might be legit, some not. But this will depend on the school and the coach. Texas was smart enough to hand the ball to Osterman and not "tweak" her much. Some coaches have Napoleon complexes and try to cookie cutter everyone. It makes very little sense to recruit someone then overhaul her and start over. If that's the case, the other way to look at it is.. she's still got her education coming. You're going to have to do some SERIOUS homework before deciding on a school. There's a fine line between being not wanting to learn something new and not wanting to overhaul the mechanics.

Bill

 

[Mark H]

Having said that, I understand that the college pitcher’s dad could have been speaking from frustration. In my daughter’s case, her college coach recruited her because of her rise, drop and change. Within the first few weeks of freshman fall practice, the coach decided that her change up, which had been extremely effective, needed to be totally changed. Long story short, she pitched four years without a change up. Her rise was constantly tinkered with to the point where she went from being an all conference D1 pitcher her freshman and sophomore years to being very average by the time she was a senior. Maybe this dad’s daughter had a similar experience and was expressing frustration born of that experience.

Same thing happens to hitters. Apparently it's not enough to win. Some have to win with kids whose swings or pitches they have remade.

Now, to the arguments against screwball/curveballs. While pitches that change planes are preferable,

Begs the question, change with respect to what plane? The swing plane? The earth? The eyes? I suggest the first and third may be more relevant than the second. Consider the swing plane on an inside black strike at the knees vs the swing plane on a pitch up in the zone.

 

[Mark H]

Was going to bite my lip here but...

I disagree with sjss's statement that success of the screwball has made people rethink. The only thing that it's made me rethink is that the hitting is getting worse. These are not screwballs, they are inside pitches. Stepping to the left and throwing inside is not a breaking pitch. As I've said before, and I still believe it, saying these are screwballs is like saying someone in slowpitch has a riseball because they throw the ball upward. The fact that so many hitters get out on these inside pitches adds to my argument that hitters are becoming so MECHANICAL in their swing that they are not taught how to read pitchers and react accordingly. Instead, they spend so much time working on the "pefect swing" they forget they need to learn how to hit the ball.

The most common hole I see in female fp swings is the low inside strike.

It makes very little sense to recruit someone then overhaul her and start over.

Mostly I agree. I do know one coach who competes with the best in the country without being able to recruit blue chip hitters. Kind of a different but successful approach. My philosophy is don't mess with your top six hitters till you coach the lower kids well enough they make the top six. If I can't do that, maybe I'm not good enough to be messing with the good hitters anyway.

There's a fine line between being not wanting to learn something new and not wanting to overhaul the mechanics.

Bill

Sometimes. Sometimes it's a big messy wide smudgy line and very obvious. Doesn't mean they don't cross it though.

 

[sluggers]

sjsss: First, "a flat rise ball" is a "high fastball". If a kid can't throw a pitch 100% of the time, then she doesn't know how to throw the pitch. So, all you are saying is, "Pitchers who don't know how to pitch get hit." In college, the good pitchers get the ball to drop or rise 100% of the time.

As to your successful high school pitchers--first kudos for them. But, get real. My DD played for a 3500+ student HS in Chicagoland playing against other 3500+ HSs. HS hitting is horrible. There was a kid who followed my DD who had a curve ball. She broke almost all of my DDs HS records. She signed at a D1 school, and never even sniffed the field. She lasted one year and quit. If you don't believe, send me an email I'll tell you her name, where she played, and where she ended up.

 

[sjsss]

"Get Real"

Sluggers-Huh? I know the difference between high school, high level travel ball and college, having had involvement with all three. You missed the point. For the kid who will never perfect the rise and will not pitch at the higher levels of college ball , there is a place for the screw / curve to augment the drop/change.

 

[CoachFP]

Here's my two cents. First, when you get a kid in college it is generally too late to change their mechanics effectively. I don't know what tweaking is per se, but that is the best you can do. This is because they have thrown hundreds of thousands of pitches a certain way and you ain't breaking those habits. After age 13 or so, forget trying to get a kid to change their motion if done incorrectly. I see it all the time, they either won't or can't do it.
Very few people can master more than two or three pitches. Any father or kid who thinks they have 6 pitches are just dreaming. It is my experience that those with "pitches" that number greater than 3 don't really have the 3 to begin with. Cat Osterman, for Pete's sake doesn't even throw a changeup. She is primarily drop and backdoor curveball. She does throw an occasional rise, which is just her curve cut a little higher.
I have never seen a real screwball and I have seen lots of pitchers. Step left/throw right is not a movement pitch. Especially when the spin is going in the wrong direction. Knowledge of physics tells me that getting momentum to the side will detract from speed going forward. You also telegraph the pitch. But girls don't try to pick pitches so the location is what makes the pitch what it is. I'd rather pump a drop down and in and get a better result than some half baked slow fastball which everyone concludes is a screwball.

 

[redhawkridge]

I'm just a pitching coach of 14 yr olds.
But when I watched the college world series, what I observed was a strategy for rightie pitchers to attack left-handed batters. Since the teams load up on lefties, the counter-attack is on the outside corner. Slide off to the left in the delivery, shoot for the outside corner, put whatever 9-to-3 spin you can on the ball, which may veer right or may not, but at least it doesn't have the typical drift to the left back into the meat of the plate.
As I saw it, moving the ball away from trouble worked pretty good for most series participants. I never saw this in previous years, but college coaches must see some pretty significant benefits to use it so much these days.
jim

 

[BoardMember]

Red, your observation is spot on. Although it's not new at all. If you watch this clip and cycle it back and forth during mid-flight of the pitch, you will see it spinning away from the lefty toward the outside corner.......

Ueno throwing a cutter to a lefty

The best description of this pitch is a "cut" vs. a "break".......A cut slides or drifts, a braking pitch creates an arc in the trajectory, whether down and/or out........A rise could better be described as a "cut" pitch as well........

I'm just a pitching coach of 14 yr olds.
But when I watched the college world series, what I observed was a strategy for rightie pitchers to attack left-handed batters. Since the teams load up on lefties, the counter-attack is on the outside corner. Slide off to the left in the delivery, shoot for the outside corner, put whatever 9-to-3 spin you can on the ball, which may veer right or may not, but at least it doesn't have the typical drift to the left back into the meat of the plate.
As I saw it, moving the ball away from trouble worked pretty good for most series participants. I never saw this in previous years, but college coaches must see some pretty significant benefits to use it so much these days.
jim

 

[Hillhouse]

I'm just a pitching coach of 14 yr olds.
But when I watched the college world series, what I observed was a strategy for rightie pitchers to attack left-handed batters. Since the teams load up on lefties, the counter-attack is on the outside corner. Slide off to the left in the delivery, shoot for the outside corner, put whatever 9-to-3 spin you can on the ball, which may veer right or may not, but at least it doesn't have the typical drift to the left back into the meat of the plate.
As I saw it, moving the ball away from trouble worked pretty good for most series participants. I never saw this in previous years, but college coaches must see some pretty significant benefits to use it so much these days.
jim

yes, and it goes to show that hitting is not being taught how to adjust. 85% of these pitches were thrown outside.. yet it never even dawned on these hitters to make adjustments. All this sort of behavior does is makes average pitching look great.

Yet in contrast, look how many HR's these college hitters have listed in their stats as they are at bat. It seemed 20+ HR's was the norm, not the exception. How can this be? Possibly because they face pitchers who have "8 pitches" yet master none? Because the "screwball" doesn't screw and gets left over the plate for a $400 bat to hit to the moon?

Sooner or later, these girls will learn how to read a pitcher and the tide will turn COMPLETELY into the hitter's favor.

Bill

 

[Wellphyt]

I also watched the College World Series. As I recall the #1 pitch that was getting hit over the fence was the screwball.

The #1 pitch that was giving hitters fits was the drop. The drop was also very effective in the KFC World Cup.

Perhaps the reason that so many pitchers through screws and curves is because that's what they were taught by their instructors when they were younger. Is it possible that your typical youth FP pitching instructor doesn't know how to teach the mechanics to throw a peel drop or a riseball?

One of the most popular pitching instructors in my area does not know how to throw a peel drop. She's experimented with it and can't throw it. Her students are taught the screw and curve. It seems like every (14u)pitcher in my area is being taught the screw.

I took my daughter out of lessons two years ago because it didn't make sense to me to pay an instructor $45 per hour to teach mediocre mechanics.

We're hoping Bill gets down here to the Southeast one of these days.