Need some help on arm location.......

[Boomers2012]

Boomers2012, I still think she looks great. She is young and not as strong and mature as the sample pitcher. Her hand size and a 12 inch ball might make it hard for her to pull the ball down. I cut my DD some slack because of her small hand to the ball size that she uses. The things that were pointed out to you are important, overlap and tighter I/R but nothing that can't be slowly improved with more emphasis on them in practice.

Thank you. I never thought of the bigger ball coming into the equation as it pertains to pulling the ball down the arm circle. That is an interesting observation that i am going to remember. I appreciate the input!

 

[Boomers2012]

Boomer........I completely agree with his small backswing comment for your DD.........I thought I'd mentioned this to you before, but maybe it was someone else. It doesn't even have to feel like a backswing.........She can just drop the ball out of the glove when it drops down to the back hip.......ANYTHING to create proper overlap and break the inertia of a static foward push of the throwing arm.......

IMO........Eliminating this move, or the backswing in general by pushing straight out of the glove, as advocated on this board by some, is something I could never get on board with for younger kids trying to develop a powerfull overall sequence, with overlap..........The "push and go" mentality is killing so much momentum in young kids it's not funny....

Boardmember, so basically you are just saying that the backswing isnt just for more momentum but for timing the sequences of the mechanics?

 

[Rocketech1]

Overall, I really like her mechanics. A couple of things: her pivot foot leaves the ground pretty noticeably right after push off. I would have her keep her weight angled back a little more so the toe drags along the ground as it leaves the rubber. Speaking of the pitching plate, its one of my pet peeves but ALWAYS pitch from one. I'm sure the video was for demonstration purposes and probably not your usual practice area? Regarding arm whip, she is using good IR but I think she can gain some velocity with drills to create more snap on the whip. I really like the 45 degree drill where she lines up her lower and upper body about 45 degrees to home plate (about 25 feet from her target) and focuses only on creating a good arm circle and keeping the elbow in tight to the hip (brush interference) just prior to 6:00 release. She should be throwing every pitch with maximum effort to generate tight spin and velocity.

 

[BoardMember]

Boardmember, so basically you are just saying that the backswing isnt just for more momentum but for timing the sequences of the mechanics?

EXXXXXaaactly..........Creating overlap.........

It's pretty simple..........For the same reason you want the body moving forward as the arm moves backward (over the top) to enhance whip/speed......OVERLAP............You want the body moving forward before the arm on the upswing.........OVERLAP........

 

[javasource]

Wow, thank you so much for all the encouraging feedback!

She has been working on a two fingered knuckle change where she essentially pushes and "pops" the ball at release. It works pretty good but like I mentioned, i am scared that the pushing motion in that changeup is affecting her overall mechanics. After reading the feedback im beginning to think im just one of those crazy pitching parents!

As for the backswing in the premotion, that is something we have been thinking about trying. Any thoughts on the pros and cons for trying it? Will that just add one more motion to the overall mechanics to "worry" about? Basically, does the backswing add enough to the pitch to justify adding?

Again, thank you for the positive feedback!!

Olivia Galati throws a knuckle... and does so with a backswing... What's most impressive to me is that she changes her grip at the top of her backswing... I throw this out there because some pitchers that learn the knuckle worry about it being shown too early, or that the grip might cause them to "fumble" the pitch as they perform a backswing.

Many knuckle ball throwers use a cupping of the ball (not cocking) on the downswing (see video)... not sure if your dd does this... but the description of 'pushing the ball' can lead to mechanics issues... and IMO is less severe (and slightly closer to her normal mechanics) with the cupping motion...

Does your dd use her wind-up for the sole purpose of keeping her grip hidden? Just curious...

Normally, I wouldn't throw Galati out there as a top MODEL pitcher, although there is no doubt she is/was incredibly successful. I say this only because I can tell she was taught HE-style, and I strongly believe she would mistakenly advocate that style, even though she's an i/r pitcher.

I give you that spiel as it relates to the methodology of learning new pitches. My theory has always been to introduce new pitches as they most closely relate to core fb fundamentals... in this case... a pitch that most closely resembles OR enforces good i/r. Often, but not always, a drop is a good second pitch, as are the traditional horseshoe and flip changes. I'm NOT saying that you should abandon the knuckle, but the extreme differences between the HE knuckle mechanics, and i/r fb mechanics can set i/r mechanics backwards - especially if the pitcher learned HE, and then learned i/r. Sort of a regression to old muscle-memory.

Cat is a good example. She learned a very open, lead with the glove shoulder style, that causes her ball to disappear behind her back... Early video of her shows a really limited stride, and an emphasis on setting her body up for positioning her corkscrew-type fb. As such, she learned the rise early and a little easier than most, as the corkscrew and riseball are COMPLIMENTING pitches (similar mechanics). BUT, she became known as a drop ball pitcher in college... On that journey, the CONTRASTING styles of drop ball mechanics vs rise ball mechanics were VERY difficult (her own words) for her to learn, and her drop ball really hurt her rise ball. It required that she work twice as hard to simply maintain that pitch.

Look, I know this is a long-a$$ story... but I point it out as I strongly feel it relates to your current dilemma. Perhaps it will give you something to think about...

As far as the backswing... and if you both decide to incorporate it...

My original theory in pitching instruction was to teach/encourage/build-off of natural body movements. Most of what I thought was right 10 years ago is long gone from my instruction... but not that. That theory is how I happened on i/r, and it's the backbone of my instruction. When teaching the drive, or push off, the natural motion that it mimics is walking/running. As such, walkthroughs are where I usually begin to address stride and overlap. I've even had to teach proper running mechanics to pitchers.

Consider the walking/running motion... the arms and legs work opposite of one another... as the right leg goes forward, the right arm travels backward. Using this as your concept of pushing off of the plate, have her start a few steps behind the plate, and walk to the plate while swinging her arms. You can slightly exaggerate the arm swinging... but keep it more towards natural. As her foot contacts the plate, have her simply do a relaxed pitch - that is simply a continuation of the walking motion. There you have it... you've now incorporated a backswing.

It really IS that easy. We don't think about arm swinging when we walk, we just do it... which can create some funny moments as you guys work on it... if you decide to.

There are extremes (i.e. Scarborough) that I would not recommend as a model. I really love Abbott's premotion... and usually show people it as a reference (http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/16569-stride-drill-needed.html#post199913) - as you really get the feel that she is running off of that plate. I don't like long backswings, as IMO it is unnatural. I've never seen anyone walking with Scarborough type arm swings, and IMO the backswing should be no greater than that you experience when walking, again... NATURALLY.

If not, you can definitely use BM's suggestion. I've a few pitchers that use a similar motion, and they typically find themselves taking the 'single-pump' slightly rearward just behind their drive leg... like a psuedo-double-pump.

As far as pros and cons... they do exist... however most are specific to a pitcher. IMO, if you keep the backswing NATURAL (as in like walking), the pros FAR outweigh any cons... which are usually very simple to correct.

Dang... sorry for the book...

 

[javasource]

JS.......Dude........Really nice job here..........It's a little scary how much you sound like me......

When I happened on this site, an argument that you and Hal were having made me laugh... and I ended up looking at some of your other posts... in search of your humor... but instead found your i/r threads. I've not nearly the experience you have, but was really amazed with our similarities in instruction style/beliefs. My wife rolled her eyes as I told her about it... accusing me of a bromance...

It's cool to happen across that... and even better when you find better descriptions/examples than you currently use - or had been using for nearly a decade. Your bat drill blew me away with its simplicity and effectiveness... in fact I was sorta pissed that I hadn't thought of it...

So, thank you - I've only 10 years instructing - and your experience and knowledge sharing definitely helped/help me grow - as well as many others on this site.

Many of our terms are different (I've taught "medial rotation", etc...) - and as such, figured I'd use some of your phrases on this thread... as many that read this are familiar with your terminology... and I hate to cause confusion.

 

[Boomers2012]

Olivia Galati throws a knuckle... and does so with a backswing... What's most impressive to me is that she changes her grip at the top of her backswing... I throw this out there because some pitchers that learn the knuckle worry about it being shown too early, or that the grip might cause them to "fumble" the pitch as they perform a backswing.

Many knuckle ball throwers use a cupping of the ball (not cocking) on the downswing (see video)... not sure if your dd does this... but the description of 'pushing the ball' can lead to mechanics issues... and IMO is less severe (and slightly closer to her normal mechanics) with the cupping motion...

Does your dd use her wind-up for the sole purpose of keeping her grip hidden? Just curious...

Normally, I wouldn't throw Galati out there as a top MODEL pitcher, although there is no doubt she is/was incredibly successful. I say this only because I can tell she was taught HE-style, and I strongly believe she would mistakenly advocate that style, even though she's an i/r pitcher.

I give you that spiel as it relates to the methodology of learning new pitches. My theory has always been to introduce new pitches as they most closely relate to core fb fundamentals... in this case... a pitch that most closely resembles OR enforces good i/r. Often, but not always, a drop is a good second pitch, as are the traditional horseshoe and flip changes. I'm NOT saying that you should abandon the knuckle, but the extreme differences between the HE knuckle mechanics, and i/r fb mechanics can set i/r mechanics backwards - especially if the pitcher learned HE, and then learned i/r. Sort of a regression to old muscle-memory.

Cat is a good example. She learned a very open, lead with the glove shoulder style, that causes her ball to disappear behind her back... Early video of her shows a really limited stride, and an emphasis on setting her body up for positioning her corkscrew-type fb. As such, she learned the rise early and a little easier than most, as the corkscrew and riseball are COMPLIMENTING pitches (similar mechanics). BUT, she became known as a drop ball pitcher in college... On that journey, the CONTRASTING styles of drop ball mechanics vs rise ball mechanics were VERY difficult (her own words) for her to learn, and her drop ball really hurt her rise ball. It required that she work twice as hard to simply maintain that pitch.

Look, I know this is a long-a$$ story... but I point it out as I strongly feel it relates to your current dilemma. Perhaps it will give you something to think about...

As far as the backswing... and if you both decide to incorporate it...

My original theory in pitching instruction was to teach/encourage/build-off of natural body movements. Most of what I thought was right 10 years ago is long gone from my instruction... but not that. That theory is how I happened on i/r, and it's the backbone of my instruction. When teaching the drive, or push off, the natural motion that it mimics is walking/running. As such, walkthroughs are where I usually begin to address stride and overlap. I've even had to teach proper running mechanics to pitchers.

Consider the walking/running motion... the arms and legs work opposite of one another... as the right leg goes forward, the right arm travels backward. Using this as your concept of pushing off of the plate, have her start a few steps behind the plate, and walk to the plate while swinging her arms. You can slightly exaggerate the arm swinging... but keep it more towards natural. As her foot contacts the plate, have her simply do a relaxed pitch - that is simply a continuation of the walking motion. There you have it... you've now incorporated a backswing.

It really IS that easy. We don't think about arm swinging when we walk, we just do it... which can create some funny moments as you guys work on it... if you decide to.

There are extremes (i.e. Scarborough) that I would not recommend as a model. I really love Abbott's premotion... and usually show people it as a reference (http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/16569-stride-drill-needed.html#post199913) - as you really get the feel that she is running off of that plate. I don't like long backswings, as IMO it is unnatural. I've never seen anyone walking with Scarborough type arm swings, and IMO the backswing should be no greater than that you experience when walking, again... NATURALLY.

If not, you can definitely use BM's suggestion. I've a few pitchers that use a similar motion, and they typically find themselves taking the 'single-pump' slightly rearward just behind their drive leg... like a psuedo-double-pump.

As far as pros and cons... they do exist... however most are specific to a pitcher. IMO, if you keep the backswing NATURAL (as in like walking), the pros FAR outweigh any cons... which are usually very simple to correct.

Dang... sorry for the book...

Wow, great stuff java.

My DD was originally taught HE and slam the door (a couple months of lessons) until I watched a college ball game and noticed the pitchers were not pitching like my DD was being taught. At that moment, I had a lightbulb moment and began to research proper mechanics and fortunately came across this site.
She did the backswing, coming up past the parallel to the ground point, until we noticed the inconsistency with the location of where the backswing ended up (hopefully that makes sense) so went to her current mechanics, and yes, that was partially to hide the grip of the ball. Until now, I was unaware of the sequencing that occurs in the pre-motion and how it affects the overall pitch.
We really appreciate the information and it has really incited some things to think about.

 

[javasource]

My DD was originally taught HE and slam the door (a couple months of lessons) until I watched a college ball game and noticed the pitchers were not pitching like my DD was being taught. At that moment, I had a lightbulb moment and began to research proper mechanics and fortunately came across this site.
She did the backswing, coming up past the parallel to the ground point, until we noticed the inconsistency with the location of where the backswing ended up (hopefully that makes sense) so went to her current mechanics, and yes, that was partially to hide the grip of the ball. Until now, I was unaware of the sequencing that occurs in the pre-motion and how it affects the overall pitch.
We really appreciate the information and it has really incited some things to think about.

You can definitely see remnants of her slamming with her shoulders. Although it angers some on this board, I'm not opposed to close-open-close pitching, as it really is a natural response to the circle (open) and stride plant (close). I just don't teach it... just kinda let it happen.

Definitely work on the sequencing of the arm lag - or as BM says, overlap. Also, spend some time with her on the release mechanics, as she's really gonna benefit from the finger contribution (i.e. wrist flexion), especially when she starts focusing on movement pitches. Watching the slow motion clips of Yukiko Ueno, and the clips of Jennie Finch and Danielle Lawrie (google Sport Science Softball) will show you and your dd "the picture". I key in on the index and middle fingers, as they are behind the ball at release. You'll see how they move inward (towards the belly button) and then you'll see more of the roll happen in the arm. Take a peak... and if you can't find them - let me know, I'll post some shorts for you.

Anyway, it's really cool to see her doing so well... have fun!

 

[Boomers2012]

http://youtu.be/6p9GIurCpKU
http://youtu.be/MMYT-Bfa_ZE


We tried the backswing......I think it went pretty good. I am still a little unsure about the overlap and how it is supposed to look. Does this look any better? It seems like her timing may be off a little but hopefully that will work itself out with practice. I am cueing her to "torque" the wrist on the downswing to allow for more whip and harder IR. The velocity definitely increased with the backswing as did the spin on the ball. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[javasource]

Tell her she is an absolute Rockstar!!! In two days, that's freakin' awesome. Take a look at the difference...

It's not just at 6 o'clock, it persists all the way through... take a look at the difference when she reaches full leg extension...

Really nice job. The timing aspect is already improving. I'll look at the rest and get back to you... but you both are kickin' butt... Great job.