need some advice on DD's pitching form

[Ericas_dad]

Thanks Jarva source. I coach her team but the pitching is all new to me. Correct me if I am wrong but the only difference in where she is now and where she shooting for next is a wrist snap at the bottom of the delivery. Is this a correct? Again thanks for the advise and we will be working n this this winter for spring ball.

 

[javasource]

Thanks Jarva source. I coach her team but the pitching is all new to me. Correct me if I am wrong but the only difference in where she is now and where she shooting for next is a wrist snap at the bottom of the delivery. Is this a correct? Again thanks for the advise and we will be working n this this winter for spring ball.

Hmm... I assume that maybe you tried viewing this thread not logged in or on a mobile device. The pictures of Erica that I posted should have the appearance of a movie. The top one is as you filmed it and as she pitched it. The bottom one is something I made by cutting her forearm off (that sounds horrible) and then pasting it back on at an angle... with the sole intent of showing you that she needs to have flexion in all her joints... the elbow and the wrist. If viewing the bottom one... you'll notice there is a lot more bend in her elbow (arm).

I'm at work... I'll clarify this matter later this evening.

So, no... wrist snap is not the difference... just hang tight... be back later.

 

[javasource]

Henry & Erica,

I/R = Internal Rotation. The arm, and its segments internally rotate. This takes place in the last quarter of the "circle".

Ken pointed out that your daughter NEEDS more bend in her elbow. Must young pitchers push or pull the ball (and their hand) down the circle. This is NOT correct. How did Ken know? Her arm was straight, with very little, to no bend. That... and he's just that good.

The circle is often referred to by the face of a clock. I have put a picture of Erica, with a red "clock" over her picture. In it, her hand is almost at 9 o'clock. The numbers in RED refer to the times on a clock. I've only included 3, 12, 9, and 6 - as they are the most referenced by pitching instructors.

You can see that in this picture, her arm is completely straight. It should be bent at the elbow from 12 o'clock all the way through to release. She NEEDS to lead the back part of the circle WITH HER ELBOW (from 12 o'clock down...). There are many ways to accomplish this, but you may have to try a few different descriptions... until she can figure out what you mean.

When I teach it, I have a cloth squishy ball that I velcro to the underside of the upper arm (just below the triceps, but above the elbow). I start them at 12 o'clock, and tell them to pull their elbow down until the squishy ball contacts their side. I find that the visual really helps with younger pitchers... they forget about their hand, and the ball in it. It's also important that the hand with the ball in it, remains palm-up, the whole time.

Why? This is REALLY IMPORTANT. Flexion - or the bend in the elbow - allows the pitcher to transfer power from the body, through the shoulder, through the elbow, through the forearm, and into the ball. Getting the most power from your upper arm to your forearm is NOT POSSIBLE unless the upper arm slows down as it approaches the side. Watch the video below.

As the upper arm slows down (decelerates), the forearm receives the power and speeds up (accelerates). During this process the upper arm bicep will rotate inward (toward the body). As such, so will the forearm. This motion is called pronation. You now have two large FORCES acting on the speed of the ball - the energy gained by slowing the upper arm/accelerating the forearm AND pronation. Adding these forces is called coupling, or force coupling. Knowing this and using this is what seperates pitchers into two groups: cute rec pitchers that plateau in the 40 mph range, and cute tb pitchers that throw fire in the 50-60 mph range and at times, pursue college level pitching.

Here's a cool illustration showing the HUGE difference in speeds when allowing for flexion (loose bend) versus keeping it straight:

This doesn't include pronation... just flexion! Adding pronation would make it even greater.

Now, let's look at that picture again...

You'll also notice that the picture has the letters A, B, C, D. These are the four quadrants of the arm circle. I teach pitching backwards (as do many on here), focusing on the arm whip (release zone) first... and then progressing only after you master the drills in quadrant A.

My recommended plan... Stop pitching. No full-motion circles. No Striding, dragging, etc.

Start with showing her arm bend as referenced above.
After she gets this, tell her about the upper arm/lower arm relationship (slowing the upper arm to allow the power into the forearm). Show her.

Now, using what she just learned, apply it by using BM's bat drill.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/15432-i-r-bat-drill-2.html

Now, work on BM's "Lock It In" drill. Her upper stays still (except for pronation). This is mainly a forearm drill.

Then work on BM's 9:00 drill. Her upper arm is slightly involved, moving until it reaches her side, and the rest of the motion is essentially the "Lock It In" drill.

Lock It In and 9 o'clock drill are located here:

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/10321-i-r-classroom.html

ALL OF THOSE DRILLS ARE IN QUADRANT A - which IMO - is the most important part in ALL of pitching.

ONCE SHE HAS BECOME VERY COMFORTABLE WITH THESE, VIDEO HER AND POST IT ON THIS BOARD, IDEALLY THIS THREAD.

Very comfortable = the ability to play catch with you consistently. Read BM's threads and follow his directions... My quick little blurb does little justice to his original thread.

 

[Ericas_dad]

Thanks Java,
I went back and looked again and I see what your talking about now. We are going to work on this over the next few weeks and see how far she comes. She has seemed to pick this up fairly quick. Thanks for all you help and I will post a video here soon or as soon as she is ready thanks.

 

[Ericas_dad]

Also we practice for about 30 min roughly 3-4 times a week. Is this ok or should I do more or less?

 

[Rocketech1]

Also we practice for about 30 min roughly 3-4 times a week. Is this ok or should I do more or less?

Yes, as long as she is practicing good mechanics otherwise she is reinforcing bad mechanics which is counter-productive.

Also, agree with JavaSource that Quadrant A (along with parts of B) is the critical section of the windmill pitch and proper mechanics here is key. That is why sling-shoters were still very effective even though they didn't use quadrants C or D. You can still generate much arm whip and tight spin using just a quarter of the arm circle, pretty amazing if you think about it.

 

[javasource]

Also we practice for about 30 min roughly 3-4 times a week. Is this ok or should I do more or less?

This is a good frequency. Here are my thoughts: If my kids ask me to go play catch, I'll jump at that chance... If practice time is super-positive, and we are both having a blast, I let it go as long as it takes. If practice time creates exasperated sighs, a schedule and emphasis on adding a solid dose of fun is in order.

As these aren't super-intensive drills, I'd recommend that you guys do them as often as you both desire, but the 3-4 schedule is adequate.

Look forward.to seeing her progress! Thanks!

 

[Rick Pauly]

Java Source has done a great job of describing "Backward Chaining". This term came up in a post recently so I thought I'd just reinforce it here. JS.....great post!!

"You'll also notice that the picture has the letters A, B, C, D. These are the four quadrants of the arm circle. I teach pitching backwards (as do many on here), focusing on the arm whip (release zone) first... and then progressing only after you master the drills in quadrant A."

Again, to reinforce what JS has said......the A quadrant is the most important followed by the B. This is a foundation of why pitchers can throw 90% of their top speed from the start of the B quadrant ("K" position). My theory is that if A+B=90% I'm going to spend a lot of time in those quadrants.

 

[Perfect Circle]

 

[Ken B]

I agree and making it fun is part of the challenge. The other challenge is to get them to feel whip as soon as possible. For the kids that are born ready, moving on to the full circle and a drive goes faster. The kids who struggle will often struggle with/without instruction. One thing I consider is that if they're going to pitch, someone's going to try to teach them. I'd rather that person know something useful rather than someone whos going to spread more of the bowling, HE, door slamming, etc. to our kiddos.