My DD lost her 4 seam spin after a bike crash

[Hillhouse]

I agree with you about making the ball move. As far a my DD is concerned the drop ball goes out of the strike zone...it is a chase pitch. Her fastball doesn't go straight either. It either curves or screws depending which side of the plate it is on but it does catch the corners of the plate. This really wasn't something that was taught to her...it just happened.

I am definitely not an expert like you are. I am just trying to decode the info I get from pitching coaches and what I read here. It just seems like many here would say that her fastball is broken and because it doesn't spin 12-6.

Right now she can blow her fastball by most 12U hitters at around 55 mph. I just don't want this to be a short run for her. She is faster than most pitchers her age (she is actually still 11) and I assume she will get faster, but if I had a nickel for everytime I heard whispers of "she is going to get blown up in 14U" I wouldn't have to go to work today. I am just trying my best to keep that from happening.

My grandmother used to tell me: When you're up to your rear in alligators, the first thing to do is drain the swamp. Translation: fix the rotation before worrying about anything else. Make it 6/12 and the rest will come easy. Don't over think things, don't let others get into your head, don't complicate this or let anyone else complicate it for you.

 

[Lance Steckler]

my favorite is trying to explain why curves and screws get hit harder against great hitters versus drops and risers do not.

 

[Hillhouse]

my favorite is trying to explain why curves and screws get hit harder against great hitters versus drops and risers do not.

It's not rocket science why this happens, but I've come to change my mind (somewhat) on the curve. I used to be dead set against it and believe it's useless. In men's fastpitch softball, it's pretty much useless at the top level. But, for whatever reason, girls do not seem to know how to adjust to curveballs and swing/miss alot. I guess this is because a curve is still a genuine spinning pitch that moves in the direction the ball is going (like it should). And the screw is a phony pitch that does NOT move, it's only angled. The fact that there is no "break" on this pitch is why it gets hammered more than most. And before anyone tries... yes, I know there are videos out there of people swinging and missing at alleged "screwballs". They are actually just swinging and missing at an inside pitch they weren't expecting, it's not like a "break" in the pitch fooled them.

 

[cnardone]

Then what is the purpose of both? Why have 2 different pitches that are essentially the same? I will NEVER understand why someone, as you described has the same speed on both, would choose a "fastball" that doesn't move over a dropball that does move. I simply cannot understand this logic. Make every pitch move.

It has been mentioned in this thread but, just because a Fastball does not move as much as a drop does not mean it does not move at all.

Sometimes you you just need to locate a pitch. Up an in, back a hitter off the plate. You need throw whatever you can really locate.

 

[Hillhouse]

It has been mentioned in this thread but, just because a Fastball does not move as much as a drop does not mean it does not move at all.

Sometimes you you just need to locate a pitch. Up an in, back a hitter off the plate. You need throw whatever you can really locate.

Big difference between a "Purpose pitch" as you described to back a hitter off the plate vs. one used in their everyday arsenal.... almost used in each at bat.

Listen, if people want to believe a "Fastball" is a good pitch, go for it. It's like this election going on, neither side is going to convince the other they are "right". Believe what you want. I'm just telling you that the WCWS pitchers don't throw fastballs, isn't that everyone's ultimate goal? US Olympic pitchers absolutely do not throw it. Even if she isn't or won't be good enough to pitch at the WCWS or US Team, the goal is to be as good as you can. Throwing straight balls or ones that purposely move less just seems counter productive to me. I'm going to throw this pitch with less movement and "hope" I place it right or they don't swing.??? I don't understand that. I never will.

 

[riseball]

Big difference between a "Purpose pitch" as you described to back a hitter off the plate vs. one used in their everyday arsenal.... almost used in each at bat.

Listen, if people want to believe a "Fastball" is a good pitch, go for it. It's like this election going on, neither side is going to convince the other they are "right". Believe what you want. I'm just telling you that the WCWS pitchers don't throw fastballs, isn't that everyone's ultimate goal? US Olympic pitchers absolutely do not throw it. Even if she isn't or won't be good enough to pitch at the WCWS or US Team, the goal is to be as good as you can. Throwing straight balls or ones that purposely move less just seems counter productive to me. I'm going to throw this pitch with less movement and "hope" I place it right or they don't swing.??? I don't understand that. I never will.

My understanding is that a fastball is defined as the fastest pitch you throw. All other pitches, drop, curve, rise, etc. with the possible exception of a change up are all defined by a specific spin, spin axis, and resulting movement. If I am mistaken, I would love to know the specific spin, axis, and movement that universally defines a fastball and for that matter a change up.

You advocate the use of a peel drop, which I agree is a great pitch. My DD said her biggest regret was not fully developing the pitch when she was in the SEC. The peel drop is characterized by a 12/6 rotation, downward movement, using a release with the fingers behind the ball. So if a pitcher throws said pitch with 12/6 rotation and it is their fastest pitch, is that not a fastball? Or is it a peel drop? Consider three hypothetical WCWS pitchers who throw a pitch with 12/6 rotation, downward movement, which is the fastest pitch in their toolbox. Bottom line is that the resulting pitches from all three are physically identical to each other. One calls it a fastball, one calls it a peel drop, and the other calls it the My Little Pony Special (MLPS). So which pitcher is correct? Would the one who calls it a fastball although it is identical to the other two, have a pitch that is not suitable for WCWS competition, while the peel and the My Little Pony Special is totally legit for use in the WCWS?

 

[Hillhouse]

First thing, it seems you're assuming I accept the concept that a "riseball" for example cannot be the "fastest pitch". I do not believe that. I do not think there was a distinguishable difference in my own personal speed of my drop and rise. On any given day, one might me 1-2 mph faster than the other if I was throwing both at max speed. I would and could vary my speed on the drop (changing speeds, not changing up) but would not do that on a rise. Anyway... in all of the scenarios you described @riseball, the key was the sentence you said about all the pitchers having same spin and downward movement: then they're all throwing drops!! If you wanna rename it to a fastball, go head. If you wanna rename it to the MLPS, go ahead. But at the end of the day, what you described with movement is a drop. My entire point in this is: if you have a ball with 12/6 spin and movement, why would anyone need another pitch that doesn't move?

I wish I could tell you how many times I've given up HR's and tried figuring it out in my head and mechanically between innings "Why won't the ball move today?" Some days the ball simply dances. Other days it stays flat and I'd pay the price. I simply cannot fathom a pitch that doesn't move on purpose. It makes ZERO sense.

If she's got 12/6 spin but no break, it's likely the release point. Fix that, get the ball dropping. In all the BP I've ever thrown to college age hitters from mid majors to Power 5, the drop is the pitch they struggled with the most.

 

[radness]

My understanding is that a fastball is defined as the fastest pitch you throw.





All other pitches, drop, curve, rise, etc. with the possible exception of a change up are all defined by a specific spin, spin axis, and resulting movement. If I am mistaken, I would love to know the specific spin, axis, and movement that universally defines a fastball and for that matter a change up.

You advocate the use of a peel drop, which I agree is a great pitch. My DD said her biggest regret was not fully developing the pitch when she was in the SEC. The peel drop is characterized by a 12/6 rotation, downward movement, using a release with the fingers behind the ball. So if a pitcher throws said pitch with 12/6 rotation and it is their fastest pitch, is that not a fastball? Or is it a peel drop? Consider three hypothetical WCWS pitchers who throw a pitch with 12/6 rotation, downward movement, which is the fastest pitch in their toolbox. Bottom line is that the resulting pitches from all three are physically identical to each other. One calls it a fastball, one calls it a peel drop, and the other calls it the My Little Pony Special (MLPS). So which pitcher is correct? Would the one who calls it a fastball although it is identical to the other two, have a pitch that is not suitable for WCWS competition, while the peel and the My Little Pony Special is totally legit for use in the WCWS?

(Good read @riseball, like the disticntion in verbage vs. Whats really going on)

To comment on
that fastball definition
imo~ is inaccurate.
And possibly the root of the conundrum about fastballs in fastpitch.

Only one pitcher i caught threw her fastball faster than her other pitches.
It was a bulletspin rotation.
We only threw it low tight and in.
Mixed it with
Her drop 12-6 spin.
Slightly slower definite downward movement.
( she also threw other pitches but that combo was a good set up)

Every other pitcher threw other pitches faster than fastball or atleast equals to.

As i have commented befor
Fastball least called pitch in my softball experience.
It is a straight pitch.
Why would a pitcher who can can control movement want to throw a meatball?!
Starts at the knee, stays at the knee,
straight to MY BAT !

( people speak to different spins on fastballs.
If the spin is over the top and it moves down.
I'm on the same platform with Mr. Bill H.
Pitch moves down
Its a drop!)

CATCHING MUCH PREFER DROP THAN ANYTHING CALLED A FASTBALL!

 

[Bonesaw]

I think confusion(for me at least) comes from thinking that 4 seamer in baseball is not a movement pitch. It has "rise" spin on it. Because of release point and angles we dont think of a baseball four seamer as "rising". With enough velocity and spin they do become almost unhittable as they drop much less than the hitters brain thinks they will.

This is a cool video about justin verlanders 4 seamer and a great inning he pitched. Lots of swingin under it.

 

[radness]

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