Look back rule again

[Fastpitch Mom]

I believe the look back rule applies to this situation, but would like clarification
Batter is walked, catcher catches the ball and returns to the pitcher (no loss of control). Batter runs to first and turns to second, hesitates then eventually walks back to first. The pitcher does not look at her much less attempt any play. Our coaches after the 3rd time request a call from the ump, who eventally calls the girl safe.

 

[quincy]

The batter is allowed to round 1st base and then return to the base.

The “hesitates” is open to umps discretion. If they are not playing games I would think they would let the runner walk back to first after a brief pause between the bases.

 

[eddieq]

Without seeing it live, it sounds like the rule was applied correctly. She can stop, but can't "camp out". Once she is moving toward a base after that stop (either advancing or retreating) she is committed to that base. The rule doesn't indicate how fast she needs to be going as long as she is progressing toward that base. As quincy indicated, it's up to the umpire's discretion/judgement on it.

As for "requesting a call from the ump", this isn't something that is called on appeal, it's called at the time of the infraction. If the umpire sees it, he should call it. If it didn't call it, it's probably safe to assume that he didn't see it. However, if the umpire appears to be looking directly at the runner and there is a clear violation that's not called, as a coach, I would request time, if granted, I would ask the umpire if the runner was in violation of the look back rule. If the umpire says, "In my judgement, she satisfied the requirements of the rule and is not in violation" or something along those lines, I'd have to be satisfied with it. If he said something like, "Well, technically, but I give them a little extra time because I hate to ring someone up like that" or "she can stop for up to 3 seconds" or something along those lines, then you have grounds for a protest.

 

[Fastpitch Mom]

Sorry I was trying to be brief so was unclear.
The runner would round 1st and wait, to the point everyone would have to wait for the runner do something. I know the 3rd time the next batter was in the box.
After the 3rd time of the same runner doing this the coach did make the appeal. The umpire did not respond at all. The umpire said and did nothing. Everyone waited and the coach actually had to ask if he could get a ruling? The umpire finally said the runner is safe.
I am just trying to understand under what rule the coach was making the appeal.

 

[eddieq]

Again, I'd have to have seen it. She can't "camp out" between the bases. She can stop once but then must immediately proceed or retreat. Umpire's judgement on if her stop is "camping" or simply moving slowly to the base.

 

[David Carter]

I've been here too except on the opposite side of this ruling. DD gets her lead off second about 4 or 5 steps, nothing special happens catcher throws the ball back to pitch DD is going back to second then BANG you are out. You see DD was walking back, the pitcher got back to the rubber before then took the throw from catcher at this point DD was probably 2 steps from the bag proceeding towards the bag, which the umpire deemed was not "immediately" this is 100% an umpire judgement call.

I asked for the umpire to explain the rule to me he basically said his interpretation of immediately included if the pitcher could get back to the rubber get the ball back from the catcher while on the rubber before the runner could get back he would call the runner out every time. Needless to say the other team had obviously had this ump before and knew his interpretation and yes they made a slight farce of the game with their pitcher always running back to the rubber as fast as she could to get the ball back from the catcher who zipped it back as fast as she could, we did get called out one or two more times (my imploring and reminding them every time was to no avail) ...basically this becomes a method to shorten all the girls leads.

All that to say it is ultimately a judgement call, the only thing I might do different instead of ask for a ruling is simply ask the umpire to interpret the rule for you, this is always my first question when engaging an umpire "what is the rule?" you have to do this first to make sure you both are talking the same language (hopefully what's in the rule book) then ask him about how he applied the rule in this situation.

 

[eddieq]

That's interesting David. The pitcher's plate (rubber as you referred to it) is not even mentioned in the rule. The 16 foot circle is the driving factor. Based on your description, that umpire is completely misinterpreting the rule and even making up his own version.

This is not a difficult rule, but it seems to cause a lot of misinterpretation and misapplication for some reason. No wonder coaches are confused, even we umpires can't seem to agree.

 

[smddad]

I've been here too except on the opposite side of this ruling. DD gets her lead off second about 4 or 5 steps, nothing special happens catcher throws the ball back to pitch DD is going back to second then BANG you are out. You see DD was walking back, the pitcher got back to the rubber before then took the throw from catcher at this point DD was probably 2 steps from the bag proceeding towards the bag, which the umpire deemed was not "immediately" this is 100% an umpire judgement call.

I asked for the umpire to explain the rule to me he basically said his interpretation of immediately included if the pitcher could get back to the rubber get the ball back from the catcher while on the rubber before the runner could get back he would call the runner out every time. Needless to say the other team had obviously had this ump before and knew his interpretation and yes they made a slight farce of the game with their pitcher always running back to the rubber as fast as she could to get the ball back from the catcher who zipped it back as fast as she could, we did get called out one or two more times (my imploring and reminding them every time was to no avail) ...basically this becomes a method to shorten all the girls leads.

All that to say it is ultimately a judgement call, the only thing I might do different instead of ask for a ruling is simply ask the umpire to interpret the rule for you, this is always my first question when engaging an umpire "what is the rule?" you have to do this first to make sure you both are talking the same language (hopefully what's in the rule book) then ask him about how he applied the rule in this situation.

In an ASA, NSA, PONY or other alphabet soup tournament; your reply should have been, "I protest your call based upon your incorrect interpretation."

 

[JAD]

I believe the look back rule applies to this situation, but would like clarification
Batter is walked, catcher catches the ball and returns to the pitcher (no loss of control). Batter runs to first and turns to second, hesitates then eventually walks back to first. The pitcher does not look at her much less attempt any play. Our coaches after the 3rd time request a call from the ump, who eventally calls the girl safe.

I have seen an umpire call a girl out, on the lookback rule, for rounding 1B after a walk when the pitcher has the ball, if the runner returns to 1B. As the 1B coach I will point to the bag and tell my players, "on the bag", when they reach 1B to prevent the tempation to round the bag.

 

[Umpire]

Please explain in more detail what you mean by "runs to 1st and turns to 2nd." I am assuming that you are referring to the batter-runner rounding 1st base. That is, as opposed to over-running 1st base.

The book uses the term "immediately." That is subject to the umpire's interpretation/discretion.