Long Toss

[iMlearning]

I read in an article that girls shouldn't use softballs for long toss. We've been doing it a few times a week and now I'm wondering if I should go to an 11" ball. We do it on an indoor soccer field so I really don't want to use a baseball because of the amount of room.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Post a link to the article.

 

[iMlearning]

I'll try to find it... I read it the other day.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

What? I have never heard that. Toss away.

There always seems to be an article that comes out against something, doesn't there?

 

[95mustang]

Here is one article I found, but probably not the one you were thinking about.

Here Is What A Sports Scientist Says About Long Toss:

“What are the skill elements in long-toss that match those of pitching? If there are similar elements how does the body learn to transfer those elements between the two activities? What is the mechanism that provokes the body to make such a transfer? Of course, the answer is that there is no transfer. The body is equipped to tell the difference between activities and is not equipped to realize similarities. Because of this, similar activities lead to performance confusion/degradation rather than performance refinement. When activities are similar, such as with different pitches, many specific trials with discriminatory feedback are required to teach the pitcher the subtle differences between the activities so that the individual pitches can be thrown with admirable levels of control and not display irrelevant elements of the others.” Dr. Brent Rushall, Ph.D

Why don’t baseball coaches know this? Because they only know or listen to what their current beliefs tell them. They do not look for anything outside their current box of information.

How do I know this? I used to be one of those closed minded instructors thinking I knew everything. And I too just listened to the mass of information put out by other baseball coaches.

Keep in mind there is no current or past research that proves that long toss has any value for improving pitching velocity or pitching performance in general. It’s only value may be as part of a full body conditioning program.

What About Weighted Balls?

Again, what are the elements of using weighted balls that could possibly improve pitching velocity since it is quite clear that pitching arm speed is the result of how fast the pitcher’s trunk can move, and not how strong the pitcher’s arm is.

If weighted balls worked, then why wouldn’t weight bats work to improve bat speed. The research is quite clear on this. Weighted bats or donuts do not improve bat speed. Actually they may disrupt it.

The Research On Weighted Bats

The belief that heavier or lighter stimuli will improve the velocity of pitching is at odds with other baseball-skill research. Otsuji, Abe, and Kinoshita (2002) and Southard and Groomer (2003) studied the effect of swinging with a weighted bat on normal-bat velocity.

As would be predicted, the weighted-bat had a negative effect in that it slowed the velocity of the normal bat swing, despite subjects reporting the normal bat feeling lighter and being swung faster. In accord with the principle of specificity of neuromuscular patterning, Southard and Groomer also observed that the swing pattern with the normal bat was altered significantly after using an overweight bat.

Here are my abstracts that led to that paragraph.

Weighted Bat Slows Swing Velocity With A Normal Bat

Otsuji, T., Abe, M., & Kinoshita, H. (2002). After-effects of using a weighted bat on subsequent swing velocity and batters’ perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Perceptual Motor Skills, 94, 119-126.

In baseball and softball, warm-up swings with a weighted bat have been used in the belief that will increase swing velocity with an ordinary bat used in the subsequent competitive situation. The purpose of this study was to investigate the after-effects of using a weighted bat on subsequent swing velocity and batters’ perceptions of swing velocity and heaviness. Men (N = 8) in varsity softball and baseball hit a ball suspended from the ceiling 45 times (3 sets of 15 trials).

For each set, the initial 5 trials used an ordinary 920-gm wooden bat (Control condition), and the following 5 trials used a bat with an additional 800-gm bat ring (Weighted condition). The final 5 trials again used the ordinary bat (post-Weighted condition).

For the first swing of the post-Weighted condition, there was a significant decrease of 3.3% for linear velocity of the bat prior to impact with the ball compared to the Control condition. From the second swing on the velocity returned to the level of the Control condition.

Subjective judgment of the heaviness and velocity of swings for the Weighted and post-Weighted conditions by each participant showed that the ordinary bat felt lighter and swing speed felt faster for the post-Weighted condition. The advantage of the warm-up with a weighted bat was thus psychological and not biomechanical.
Implication. A weighted bat slowed swing velocity for the next trial with an ordinary bat.

The point is that pitching is a belief based activity that has little research behind it. This is why so many pitchers are wasting as much as 50% of their practice time on activities that do not improve their overall pitching performance such as long toss, weighted baseballs, weight training or other devices that are being invented every day.

 

[iMlearning]

I've looked and looked, but can't find which article said that, but it clearly said that when doing long toss, girls should use a baseball. At any rate, we currently do it on an indoor soccer field so we are limited in distance anyway, so we'll just use the softball. We run out of room at about 165 feet once you add in enough room for a crow hop and a little room to catch without being up against the wall.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

If I get the Jaeger long toss program for Christmas, I will be using a softball. The D1 girls that I see prior to games are in the outfield throwing the softball over 200 feet.

 

[SAMBU101010]

Not really on subject but I am a fan of the long toss as a warm up and particularly a good workout. I used is with my daughter from the time she was 14 until now in college. Like the last post mentioned about throwing the ball over 200 feet, just make sure the throws are accurate. I saw Jennie Finch long toss in Williamsport PA on the I think it was Bejjing Olympic tour throw the ball well over 200 feet and was hitting the glove at the other end 99% of the time. One of the best softball exhibitions that I had ever seen!!

 

[iMlearning]

If I get the Jaeger long toss program for Christmas, I will be using a softball. The D1 girls that I see prior to games are in the outfield throwing the softball over 200 feet.

Do you know how wide the outfield is? I googled with no luck. The D1 field we were at recently was 220 from home to centerfield and 200 ft home to left and right foul lines. I don't do math

 

[iMlearning]

Not really on subject but I am a fan of the long toss as a warm up and particularly a good workout. I used is with my daughter from the time she was 14 until now in college. Like the last post mentioned about throwing the ball over 200 feet, just make sure the throws are accurate. I saw Jennie Finch long toss in Williamsport PA on the I think it was Bejjing Olympic tour throw the ball well over 200 feet and was hitting the glove at the other end 99% of the time. One of the best softball exhibitions that I had ever seen!!

There's something about seeing that ball fly long distances. It's just impressive. We are not there yet