locking the front leg prior to contact

[ssarge]

This is central to my point. If you aren't rotating the pelvis into heel plant but are waiting till heel plant to rotate the pelvis you will not flow.

My point as well. This being but one example of the principle of developing and applying athetic movement - rather than merely mechanics - to the swing.

And this point seems very consistent with what was posted in the forwarded PM by SBFamily.


To reiterate the point - the good swing is NOT a series of mechanical actions. It is rather a loading sequence followed by an unloading sequence, with some overlap. One long continuous athletic movement. Doing this will RESULT in the emulation / strong mapping of the mechanical positions consistently demonstrated by elite hitters.

And I absolutely believe it is easier to learn to hit in this manner at a young age than it is to learn a series of mechanical actions. Has nothing to do with being an elite or advanced hitter, and everything to do with learning to move the body.

Regards,

Scott

 

[jimginas]

appreciate the feedback - interesting discussion

 

[Coach Lia]

I believe that some coaches say not to keep the front leg straight to avoid putting stress on the knee. As we all know the importance of weight transfer on a swing having a locked knee would absorb all the force transferred on that leg.

 

[ifubuildit]

My this is interesting.

Interesting discussion we are having here. Mark and Scott I would agree with you both to a certain degree. I do agree that you cannot be mechanical with your swing and at some point you have to have a single movement, a fluidity, to the ball.

If your teaching a young player how to hit your not going to get that very often. You both work with older hitters for the most part who are not only fluid but have more strength and stability than your average 8-13 year old. So the question becomes one of what is the process to move younger hitters in that direction? In a manner that eliminates that mechanical movement and allows them to become more fluid.

Steve's drills help that process to some degree but they lack in clarity of direction for developing the load / unload sequence that is needed for a high level swing. Not that Steve hasnt talked about this on his site. He has many times. It just doesnt translate that well off his DVD's. So if I dont spend a lot of time on his site in study as a parent then I may never tie the pieces of the puzzle together for an efficient load/unload sequence. As you know I consider Steves original DVD's to be some of the best ever made by a hitting instructor.

I think the key to this whole discussion lies in the load/unload sequence of the back hip. If a young hitter doesnt load or is never taught to load the back hip then they are not going to develop the feel for unloading into footplant that your discussing here. They can still be efficient with their hips at foot plant and will still hit the ball hard. But that fluid motion into foot plant will never be fully developed.

As for the question of the front leg. I have been using a sequence of movement that I have developed from both Steve and SB's hitting mentor that is working very well for my young students. If you apply soft toe touch, footplant, and flex the knee to the stride foot it is no different than Englishbeys definition of "Sitting" during the phase of linear going into rotation. So I have them doing a drill to practice this movement of planting the heel, Flexing the knees inward, not downward, (Sitting on the commode) Tilting and then starting rotation of the hip. All at the same time. It has helped my young hitters develop that fluid motion your talking about. I then at a later time add the back hip load and that takes them to rotation into footplant. Your point Ssarge.

What I find is that if you teach a hitter to straighten the front leg at contact they will often do this too soon and you will see them loose balance, come out of their tilt, because they have lost balance, and top the ball. This is off the tee or in a game during a live swing. I have TONS of video of my students doing just this during their swings.

That is because they will do this prematurely before contact and it will become ingrained muscle memory. If you flex the front knee then rotate what you will find is that the leg will still straighten but it will be delayed enough due to the flex that it will be at or post contact in most cases. They can still shift the weight forward to the front leg and will hit the ball harder. In short a straight front leg becomes a "No Teach" IF taught in the right sequence.

The other thing the flex provides is creating a pelvic load into the core creating tension in the core. That tension is stored energy which can be applied during the unload sequence. The flex also allows the hitter to delay the swing enough if needed so that they can wait in the flex position for the change up. If they are not sitting on that pitch and waiting for it.

Dana.

 

[SBFAMILY]

If hitting were life threatening you might have a point...why would you call a doctor anyway? Have you ever tried to talk to a doctor during visiting hours? You usually just get their nurse and you are wasting valuable time! You call 911! My doctor says take an aspirin if you do get chest pain however I have cardiac problems already. The 911 responder usually ask a series of questions after telling you help is on the way or in your case could you send me an EKG or video so I can see how much pain you are in or are you turning blue?

Mark some of these parents do not have video capability and are looking for suggestions. And it sounds like you know what you are doing however I do not have any video to confirm that. If I were one of your students or your daughter and called you from a game and said, "Coach/ Dad I seem to be popping the ball up a lot! Do you have any suggestions on what to do?" Would you tell me to send you a video? I know I am being sarcastic but would you tell her your swing is at 8 frames verses 5, work on getting it to 5 and take two aspirin and call me in the morning?

 

[Mark H]

What I find is that if you teach a hitter to straighten the front leg at contact they will often do this too soon


Dana.

I agree with the above.

I think the point here in this thread is, should pelvic rotation start before heel plant.

 

[Mark H]

If hitting were life threatening you might have a point...why would you call a doctor anyway? Have you ever tried to talk to a doctor during visiting hours? You usually just get their nurse and you are wasting valuable time! You call 911! My doctor says take an aspirin if you do get chest pain however I have cardiac problems already. The 911 responder usually ask a series of questions after telling you help is on the way or in your case could you send me an EKG or video so I can see how much pain you are in or are you turning blue?

Mark some of these parents do not have video capability and are looking for suggestions. And it sounds like you know what you are doing however I do not have any video to confirm that. If I were one of your students or your daughter and called you from a game and said, "Coach/ Dad I seem to be popping the ball up a lot! Do you have any suggestions on what to do?" Would you tell me to send you a video? I know I am being sarcastic but would you tell her your swing is at 8 frames verses 5, work on getting it to 5 and take two aspirin and call me in the morning?

If I worked with her I'd probably have a good idea and a good conversation about why she was popping up. If I had not worked with her, I'd tell her I'd need to see her in person or on video. If I start using the SWAG method based on her words then I picture something different than she is describing because we don't have a common language about hitting, not having worked together and she pictures something different than I mean and I'm more likely to do harm than help.

I see this exchange actually belongs in the "power hitting popping up" thread?

 

[ssarge]

Mark some of these parents do not have video capability and are looking for suggestions.

And if they get the correct one, they'll have been very lucky. Providing an answer before seeing the problem is INCREDIBLY risky.

I will say this, though - almost always, the swing flaw is FAR upstream of whatever is the manifestation. Most swing flaws happen very early, and treating the symptom does not heal the disease.


I don't understand the sarcasm. Mark is agreeing with much of what you say. And BTW, I know for a fact that he has coached younger girls in the past year. Many of my hitting students - I have about 12 per week at the moment - are younger as well.

 

[ssarge]

What I find is that if you teach a hitter to straighten the front leg at contact they will often do this too soon

I agree as well. Actually, I think if the mass transfers to the front side, and the hips rotate appropriately and fully, the front knee straightens on it's own just before contact.

Trying to straighten it without those things happening will not improve the swing, and may hurt it. This is an illustration of my point about treating a symptom rather than the disease. Not that a swing flaw is a "disease," but I think this is an apt metaphor.

Regards,

Scott

 

[calgofo]

And if they get the correct one, they'll have been very lucky. Providing an answer before seeing the problem is INCREDIBLY risky.

I will say this, though - almost always, the swing flaw is FAR upstream of whatever is the manifestation. Most swing flaws happen very early, and treating the symptom does not heal the disease.


I don't understand the sarcasm. Mark is agreeing with much of what you say. And BTW, I know for a fact that he has coached younger girls in the past year. Many of my hitting students - I have about 12 per week at the moment - are younger as well.

Off topic and not germaine to this thread but that is the exact phrase I was looking for in response to a pitching related thread. As with almost any complex athletic motion, when the action is viewed segmentally it is fairly easy to see a flaw in micro and offer advice for correction but IMHO the manifestation of the flaw appears far earlier in the athletic sequence.

Thanks Scott. Well said as always.