Jordyn Bahl

[EdLovrich]

I agree and can only offer these few observations:

1) The video is nearly a decade old. (Published to YT in 2013).

2) During the video, a crow hop is properly defined in the slide at 0:07.

3) The correct infraction IS identified starting at 0:16 and again at 0:30 ("...the pitcher is actually starting the pitch from 35 feet instead of 40 feet")

Unfortunately, yes, at 0:48 the narrator states. "...when the pitcher is starting from in front of the (pitcher's) plate, and not on it, a crow hop has occurred". This is (EDIT) not the definition of a crow hop. In the final analysis, it IS an illegal pitch and that is what would be called, Ultimately, that is the goal, to get the right call, I just wish it was always for the correct reasons.

 

[Hillhouse]

I agree and can only offer these few observations:

1) The video is nearly a decade old. (Published to YT in 2013).

2) During the video, a crow hop is properly defined in the slide at 0:07.

3) The correct infraction IS identified starting at 0:16 and again at 0:30 ("...the pitcher is actually starting the pitch from 35 feet instead of 40 feet")

Unfortunately, yes, at 0:48 the narrator states. "...when the pitcher is starting from in front of the (pitcher's) plate, and not on it, a crow hop has occurred". This is (EDIT) not the definition of a crow hop. In the final analysis, it IS an illegal pitch and that is what would be called, Ultimately, that is the goal, to get the right call, I just wish it was always for the correct reasons.

I don't know what video you're referencing. And I'm a little confused by the last paragraph above.

Technically, taking the "gym step" in front of the rubber (ala Monica Abbott) is the same as someone taking a huge leap and replant. Whether the pitcher goes airborne or has a simple 2 inch step forward, a crow hop is throwing the ball from a 2nd push position. Under the rules, both are illegal. It can be easy to lose that point and think only someone who's jumping 4 feet is illegal. The pitcher who slides their foot in front of the rubber is doing the same thing on a smaller scale.

 

[jadefish]

I don't know what video you're referencing.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Would be nice if NFHS, USA, USSSA & NCAA could get locked in a room and decide on one rule set.

Absolutely! Dont they understand the lack of addressing this issue is hurting the game. It is consuming the game.

 

[_MIA_]

It is consuming the game.

That is a bit much..

 

[EdLovrich]

Thank you jadefish for grabbing the video.

@Hillhouse The issue comes up from this; A crow hop is defined (in NFHS and similar in the other codes) as "...the replant of the pivot foot prior to the delivery of the pitch." (NFHS 2.16). The pitch (and logically the delivery) begin ..."when the hands separate after they have come together..." (NFHS 6.1.2.a)

Per the narration in the video (and the thumbnail for in above) the hands do not separate until after the foot has come forward and replanted, so it cannot, technically, be a crow hop. It is, however an illegal pitch because the pitcher "...push(ed) off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate..." (NFHS 6.1.2.c)

You are correct that a crow hop can either involve a leap or a sliding of the foot, but at least under the NFHS definition it occurs DURING the pitch, not prior to it. It is a technicality and a difference that perhaps means nothing in the final analysis, the video shows an illegal pitch. It is just that so few know a crow hop from a leap from a "gym step" (which isn;t defined regardless, so you would just apply the pushing off from a place other than the pitcher's plate).

 

[jadefish]

Thank you jadefish for grabbing the video.

The second-year DD started playing softball, I decided that I need to understand this game better. So I signed up to umpire the rec league game in order to get free training. The above video was one of the videos they showed us.

 

[wheresmycar]

Are you saying there is a hitch/hesitation in the arm movement or in the step/stride?

The hitch or hesitation is in the Arm movement. This is an indicator a crow hop may have occurred. In the NFHS video, the hands remain together until the replant, so the pitch starts from 4 feet in front of the plate.

ASA - May 2012 Plays and Clarifications
Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag" in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.

 

[wheresmycar]

I am not ignoring the second and third parts of 10.5.5. I am saying that it is not possible for a P to drag or hop to a replant and NOT have the second and third parts of the rule occur. Sort of like it is not possible to fall off a roof and not land on something. One leads to the next leads to the next. If, in some way, a P was able to drag the bottom of her foot along the ground and not have it some to a stop (which would be replanting it) then she, most likely, would not gain a second starting point and would therefor not be able to push off with her pivot foot. If that somehow happened, it would not be an illegal pitch, no matter how ineffective or 'wrong' it looked.

As far as the NFHS video, it is not the fact that the pitcher keeps his hands together that creates a crowhop, despite what the audio says, and yes, that discussion has been had on NFHS sites many times. In NFHS, crowhop is defined as "the replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch" and yes the crowhop itself makes a pitch illegal (NFHS 6.1.2 Note 2). By rule, the delivery does not start until after the hands separate (NFHS 6.1.2.a). When the hands separate, the P in the video has already dragged/hopped forward and is not in contact with the pitcher's plate and, technically, this is the infraction leading to an illegal pitch (NFHS 6.1.2.c Pushing off the pivot foot from a place other that the pitcher's plate is illegal). It is a small difference and the end results are the same, but small differences matter.

I have no delusions that we will ever agree... but for argument's sake....

10.5.5 has 3 components, 1-replant, 2-gain a second starting point, 3-push off her pivot foot.

If you cannot do the first without all 3 occurring (which is an absurd position IMHO), why have 3 components to the rule? If the replant alone makes it illegal, just have the rule say that, why confuse it with the other two components? Also, you and I seem to have a different definition of "second starting point".

You mentioned earlier, the Hands are not in the rule, but 10.3 tells us the pitch "starts" when the hands separate.

NCAA Rule 10.3 - Start of the Pitch. The pitch officially begins and cannot be discontinued once the hands have separated after coming together.

10.5.5 references a 2nd starting point. This is why the NFHS video points out the hands are still together after the replant, as this clearly establishes a "Second starting point".

It is humorous you criticize the NFHS training video, but they wrote the NFHS rules. It would seem to me, their video intended to train umpires on the NFHS rules, would be an authoritative source.

 

[EdLovrich]

The hitch or hesitation is in the Arm movement. This is an indicator a crow hop may have occurred. In the NFHS video, the hands remain together until the replant, so the pitch starts from 4 feet in front of the plate.

ASA - May 2012 Plays and Clarifications
Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag" in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.

@wheresmycar You used an old rule, and interpretation. Let's look at the new rule:

RULE 6A - PITCHING REGULATIONS (FAST PITCH)
SECTION 3 - LEGAL DELIVERY
J. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher’s plate is illegal.

Analysis so far: You stated that nowhere in the rule does sit say "anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent." While technically true, as these words aren't used, I do not know how you could push off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate without the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg bending.

Further analysis, you agree and the rule clearly states, that the pitch does not begin until the hands are separated. Since in the video the hands do not separate until after the hesitation/stop/pause in the arm movement then that is not the cause of the pitch being illegal. As I have said a couple of times already, this is a technicality and the pitch is illegal regardless, but as an umpire, you have to know what makes any particular pitch illegal and just because it 'looks funny' does not make it illegal. Would a pitch be illegal if the P somehow and for some reason stopped her arm during the rotation after separating her ands and did not replant the foot? It would certainly look odd, more than likely it would be ineffective, but I do not see anything in the rules nor in the clarification you cited above. That citation says that the arm continuing uninterrupted is an indicator of a legal pitch. That does not mean that a pitch with a pause is, by that reason alone, an illegal pitch.