Intervening Play

[shockcoach]

So I was reading a Little League umpires board I belong to and a questioned popped up. Read the question and answer below. My question, being a rules junkie, does this apply with ASA or Fed rules?

The question:

Runner at 3rd., 2 outs, Batter hits a shot to SS, in the confusion the player forgets there are 2 outs and the SS throws home to retire R3. R3 is safe. Catcher throws in time to 1st and the 3rd OUT is recorded on the BR.

Does the run score? Why or Why Not?

The answer:

The run SCORES...

It's a form of "Timing Play" called an "Intervening Play". I'm sure some of the more senior Umpires remember hearing that term. You won't find it in any rulebook, but I'm sure both Evans and J/R mention it in their documents.

And "Intervening Play", is a play in which the defense makes a decision to attempt to play on a runner trying to SCORE instead of going for the 4.09 play. It is an EXCEPTION to the EXCEPTION portion of 4.09.

What I'm describing is a difficult play to interpret and not well known, but this is the Professional interpretation.

In the play, the run would count because it scored during an INTERVENING PLAY and before the BR was called out for OUT #3. Rule 4.09(a) Exception (1) does not apply because the defense attempted to retire a SCORING runner (and failed) before attempting to retire the BR at 1st, base.

 

[Comp]

Does not apply in ASA or FED. No run can score if the batter/runner is put out before successfully reaching 1st base, or if the 3rd out of the inning is a force out.

 

[MTR]

Does not apply in ASA or FED. No run can score if the batter/runner is put out before successfully reaching 1st base, or if the 3rd out of the inning is a force out.

Same in NCAA, NJCAA, ISF, MLB, MiLB, etc.

Either someone is giving you a bad ruling or it may be that LL stands alone on this rule.

 

[quincy]

Circle back to baseball for a second, the runner scores in LL baseball?

 

[chinamigarden]

So I was reading a Little League umpires board I belong to and a questioned popped up. Read the question and answer below. My question, being a rules junkie, does this apply with ASA or Fed rules?

The question:

Runner at 3rd., 2 outs, Batter hits a shot to SS, in the confusion the player forgets there are 2 outs and the SS throws home to retire R3. R3 is safe. Catcher throws in time to 1st and the 3rd OUT is recorded on the BR.

Does the run score? Why or Why Not?

The answer:

The run SCORES...

It's a form of "Timing Play" called an "Intervening Play". I'm sure some of the more senior Umpires remember hearing that term. You won't find it in any rulebook, but I'm sure both Evans and J/R mention it in their documents.

And "Intervening Play", is a play in which the defense makes a decision to attempt to play on a runner trying to SCORE instead of going for the 4.09 play. It is an EXCEPTION to the EXCEPTION portion of 4.09.

What I'm describing is a difficult play to interpret and not well known, but this is the Professional interpretation.

In the play, the run would count because it scored during an INTERVENING PLAY and before the BR was called out for OUT #3. Rule 4.09(a) Exception (1) does not apply because the defense attempted to retire a SCORING runner (and failed) before attempting to retire the BR at 1st, base.

If you can't find it in any rule book then its not a rule. If the batter/runner is out at first prior to reaching first the run doesn't count, it doesn't matter how many hoops you go through to get to that point, but a force out that ends an inning is treated the same regardless.

 

[BretMan]

I think that what you are getting on the Little League board is a misinterpretation of a baseball rule.

The (Jim) Evans manual and the J/R (Jaksa/Roder) manual are two baseball rule instructional manuals that are considered to be two of the more definitive sources for rule interpretations. Jim Evans runs one of the professional baseball umpire schools in Florida. Chris Jaksa and Rick Roder wrote their manual as sort of an umpire classroom textbook for one of the now-defunct pro schools (Brinkman's).

I can't speak to the Evans manual, as they are pretty hard to come by unless you've attended his school. The J/R manual is still published each year and is available to the general public- I have one right here in front of me at my computer desk.

The concept of the "intervening play" is a baseball ruling that involves something completely different than the play on the Little League forum. It has to do with placement of runners following a play where there is interference and the ball has become dead.

Here what the J/R manual says:

If a batter-runner has not yet touched or passed first base at the time of the interference, all runners not out must return to their TOP (time of pitch) base, with the following exceptions:

1) If the batter-runner is awarded first base, any runner forced to advance is awarded his advance base.

2) If a runner from third has aquired home plate despite a play against him, and then interference occurs by the batter-runner before he reaches first base, the run is allowed to score, unless the interference was the third out. This is called the "intervening play".

In short, the "intervening play" concept has nothing at all to do with the Little League play in question. On that play, there was no interference to be dealt with and no placement of runners to be considered. The batter-runner was put out before safely reaching first base and that was the third out, thus no runs can be scored.

 

[MTR]

Here is Rule 4.09 of the OBR. Please note the word or derivitive of "intervening" isn't mentioned at all.

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Rule 4.09(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the
runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall
award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.
PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a
reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to
and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,
and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be
called out.

Rule 4.09 Comment: APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the third
out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith
on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs.
But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three
outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter-runner
before he touched first base, Jones’ run does not count.

APPROVED RULING: Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceding runner unless
two are out.
Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first, and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the
park. Jones fails to touch third on his way to the plate. Smith and Brown score. The defense holds the
ball on third, appeals to umpire, and Jones is out. Smith’s and Brown’s runs count.
APPROVED RULING: Two out, Jones on second, Smith on first and batter, Brown, hits home
run inside the park. All three runs cross the plate. But Jones missed third base, and on appeal is declared
out. Three outs. Smith’s and Brown’s runs are voided. No score on the play.
APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on second. Batter Brown flies out to
center. Two out. Jones scores after catch and Smith scores on bad throw to plate. But Jones, on appeal,
is adjudged to have left third before the catch and is out. Three outs. No runs.
APPROVED RULING: Two out, bases full, batter hits home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is
declared out for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.
Here is a general statement that covers:
When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally
occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire’s decision, the runner is out
when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out the
runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following
runners.
APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field.
Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right
fielder’s throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith
reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

 

[shockcoach]

Thanks for the replies. I thought it sounded fishy and not all the umpire's on the thread are buying into it. The best response I read was by a local umpire I met years ago and went she posted the following:

The following is an excerpt from J/R that defines a true intervening play:

(2) If a runner from third has acquired home plate despite a play against him, and then interference occurs by the batter-runner before he reaches first base, the run is allowed to score, unless the interference was a third out. This is called the "intervening play".

Please note the highlighted portion. A true intervening play does not supersede 4.09.



For those wishing to read the threat, it's on a cumbersome yahoo message board located at:

Yahoo! Groups

Thanks again

 

[MTR]

Thanks for the replies. I thought it sounded fishy and not all the umpire's on the thread are buying into it. The best response I read was by a local umpire I met years ago and went she posted the following:

The following is an excerpt from J/R that defines a true intervening play:

(2) If a runner from third has acquired home plate despite a play against him, and then interference occurs by the batter-runner before he reaches first base, the run is allowed to score, unless the interference was a third out. This is called the "intervening play".

Please note the highlighted portion. A true intervening play does not supersede 4.09.

Then I don't see the point of the rule. No run may score if retiring the BR is the third out of the inning regardless of the reason.

 

[BretMan]

The point of the rule is that with less than two outs in this lone, rare situation the runner from third would not be placed back on his "time of pitch" base. It's not really addressing whether or not the run scores when there are two outs (it doesn't), as the misinformed poster on the LL forum is claiming.

I can only guess that it's because on this play any subsequent interference by the batter-runner would have had zero effect on play at home. The runner has already crossed the plate and the defense has already had their unimpeded chance to retire him.

It's an oddball situation that I can honestly say I have never seen come up in any game.