interesting conversation with a couple of pitchers' dads

[Perfect Circle]

"We are readers... turned... writers... in need of publication "~PC

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I am not obsessed with it and I am constantly amazed at those that are. The same thing with hitting. What the heck? Maybe to people that never played any sport softball is complicated, but it is so similar to every other sport that I can't believe people think it is complicated.

Hillhouse explains pitching rather simply. Denny Thorneburg does the same thing.

I have had a couple of dads bring their daughter to me, that thought that my lesson would be comprised of them preaching and me catching. I usually don't mind doing whatever I am getting paid for, but they would have their DD in tears. I really think that they should go play slow pitch. There is a totally different world out their for adults that want to play softball. You can play every night, if you wish. Heck, I'll even show up and tell you to line up your knocker knuckles, several times at one at bat.

To me this message is the true wisdom here. "keep pitching talk simple".

For you dads that talk to other dads and get a glazed-over look when you start to break down motions to them like what happens on this site... Now put yourself in the shoes of your 12 year old and see how that same excessive hyper-analysis verbiage comes across...

Keep it simple. Express the simple basics and let nature take her the rest of the way there. Don't win the war within one pitching session. Simplify and win many little battles towards the speed of "whip" and pitching legally. To me it's amazing (sad) the non-progress a pitcher can exhibit by being overwhelmed with multitudes of minutia.

 

[cmustangsfp]

JJ, Yes you are one of the minority. You care and want your DD to succeed. You want to do as much as you can to help her improve rapidly. Not that it is a bad thing. It is sometimes a sad thing that some of us parents care so much and let me explain. It is sad because there are so few of us that care that much. I have coached several sports (softball, T-ball, basketball and volleyball). The worst parents were in bball. They drop their kids off at tourneys or ask that the coach take them. Send them to all day tourneys with no money to eat, no gatorade/water bottles (or just 1 bottle for a 3 game day), etc. Yell, holler and berate the refs and other teams, when they do show up for games. They don't even show up at some tourneys. In the beginning of the season the kid makes a good play and then looks to the empty stands to see that no one he knows is there to see his accomplishments. Truly sad. The softball community is not like that. Much fewer instances of helicopter parenting. However just because they show up, doesn't mean they are gung ho about learning all they can to help their DD's. And truly most other positions besides P and C, do not require the level of repetition and higher amounts of practice that those 2 positions require. Some parents of P's just don't get the commitment aspect that it takes to be a successful pitcher. When I am giving my coach speech to new parents of my TB teams, I am usually asked about a P's practice schedule. When I say for 8U-10U it should be 3 times a week for 1-2 hours and for 12U and above 4-5 times a week for 1-2 hours, some parents look at me like "Are you crazy?" or in reality it really comes across as "Are you crazy? Do you think I am going to give up that much time out of my week to devote to this phase of her life?". When parents ask me "How come little Suzy isn't advancing in her pitching?" or "What did you do to make your DD's so good?", I ask "How much time do you spend with her in practice each week?". They usually respond that they have to "make" her go out and practice and that she often gets tired of throwing balls into the fence or that she doesn't have anyone to catch her. "She's got you" I respond and then I get the avalanche of excuses "I'm too tired when I come home from work, It's too dark when i get home, It hurts when she throws a wild one, I'm too old,fat,blind,slow you name it. etc"

So those parents get to sit on the sideline and shout useless instructions like "Just throw strikes" while we get to actually help our DD's by offering corrections that have to do with the mechanics.

Here is what you need to do in the future. Walk up to the dad or mom and ask to see their shins or big toes. If they do not have a story to tell about the ones that get away, keep your conversation to fluff. If they have bruises or stories that match (or beat) yours, go in to the deep discussions about whip, bent arm, etc. That will save you lots of time and heartache.

I wear my bruises as badges of honor. I had the honor of helping my DD improve and had the bonding time that comes with that experience. They didn't, they lost, I won. Be proud my fellow bucket dad, yes you are a minority, but a very proud minority.

 

[Perfect Circle]

When they have teeth missing, you'll know they worked on throwing before they started pitching

 

[Doug Romrell]

What amazes me more than anything in this game is the number of people who are armchair pitching coaches and armchair hitting coaches. You see parent making suggestions to the coach regarding pitching, hitting, positioning, fielding, etc. One could do a pretty good comedy clip of the various suggestions from those who actually have no clue. Recognizing one's own ignorance is near impossible for most.

This website has definitely helped me in ways I never dreamed of, particularly in the mechanics of pitching and hitting.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I know a guy that moved over the weekend, to a different district, because his DD didn't get to pitch on Friday. She was in a different school on Monday AM.

So, I have seen all kinds of crazy.

 

[Ken B]

Both from same thread:

"Recognizing one's own ignorance is near impossible for most."
Doug Romrell

“It’s what you learn after you know it all that counts."
Attributed to John Wooden by Mike Candrea

Sue Enquist has talked about her past practices and how much things change and evolve. For me it's good to remember the things I used to teach with complete confidence and remember the times I learned how far off I was... I'd have to guess that many of our world's best teachers were also great students.

 

[JJsqueeze]

To me this message is the true wisdom here. "keep pitching talk simple".

For you dads that talk to other dads and get a glazed-over look when you start to break down motions to them like what happens on this site... Now put yourself in the shoes of your 12 year old and see how that same excessive hyper-analysis verbiage comes across...

Keep it simple. Express the simple basics and let nature take her the rest of the way there. Don't win the war within one pitching session. Simplify and win many little battles towards the speed of "whip" and pitching legally. To me it's amazing (sad) the non-progress a pitcher can exhibit by being overwhelmed with multitudes of minutia.

I agree with you here, it has to be made simple so they can understand it. BUT (always a but), making things too techy for a kid is not the only way a dad can try to teach. I filmed the game and just showed it to her in slow motion. She knows how she pitched, she knows some of the things we have been working on. She looked at the video and told me she needs to improve her finish posture and that is why she had a hard time finding the up/down control during the game. I did not solicit the opinion, she was shocked that this is how she looked, she really thought she was standing straight as a board at release.

My point is that sooo much obsession went into getting that video, but ZERO of it was outwardly crazy, just a dad filming his daughter doing a sport.....but.....the dad had spent hours trying to find the right camera that wouldn't blur in slo mo and dad went to the opposing teams side to get the right lighting to give the best chance of no blur and to get her arm from the correct side to see the hand position and release action. Then dad loaded it into software that he found by participating in this board. Then he showed her what she looked like to see what she thought.

The point is that just because we get really specific and technical on the board, does not mean that we teach our young daughters this way, our job is the distill the info to a point where it is relevant to them and to somehow make it fun.

 

[Jojo]

I think it's a double-edged sword. For every Jenny Finch and Sarah Pauly, there are dozens of kids who burned out or quit because their parent took their "thing" and made it about themselves, or simply pushed too hard and took the fun out of the game. Most of the kids I see getting scholarships have concerned and loving parents, many of whom were crazy dads early on, but realized in time that being that crazy parent closed more doors then it opened. Many coaches at the TB level just don't want to deal with that, and assume that college coaches don't want to deal with it either. Being supportive is different then being obsessive.

I think it just takes time for some people to learn that they can't want it FOR their kids, or throw money, study, and time at it FOR their kids. The kid has to do it, period.
-W

Over the years I've seen many kids with great talent, quit due to an over aggressive parent.
Had a mom last year begin to punish her 9yr old. Would tell her she would lose phone privileges if she threw one more wild pitch.

Just recently, I've been slowly having problems with one of my dads. Last year at 9, his DD was doing an amazing job and on a great team so they won most of their games. There was some disagreements between the coaches so he left the team and now as a 10yr old has put her on a 9yr old team. She is having to carry the team because the dad feels with her pitching, this team should be just as good as the 10yr old team she left.

So he started pushing her and pushing her. At the last classes he started yelling at her every time she threw a ball, or threw something that wasn't as fast as her fastest pitch. She's started to muscle the ball now and lean forward trying to get everything into the pitch, which is causing her to lose speed. I brought this up to the dad, put he didn't want to hear it, he just yelled at her to fix it. She's been crying in every class. When she throws something he deems 'too slow' he'll slam the ball down into the ground r throw it over her head to chase it.

It started to become so bad that I could no longer coach her, because the last thing she needed was 2 adults fussing at her.
I talked to her mom. I told the mom, I've seen this too many times, and this kid was going to quit. She cries the entire class, she pitches with fear and she cannot grow or learn or try to correct mechanics for fear the pitch will come out too slow. I told her, her DD had too much talent to let her quit, and I'd talk to her dad one more time, and maybe the mom would have to come out and catch her.
I talked to him again, I told him I knew how he felt --I was that crazy mom--I had to learn when enough was enough and so did he. He needed to understand that she cannot pitch with fear, she has to pitch with confidence or she won't survive.

They've had one class since the last talk, and I made it a --mechanics only class--no fussing about speed or control. It went pretty good, she got through the whole class without him yelling at her once and she didn't cry.

 

[Jojo]

I know a guy that moved over the weekend, to a different district, because his DD didn't get to pitch on Friday. She was in a different school on Monday AM.

So, I have seen all kinds of crazy.

I knew two brothers that both had pitcher daughters a year apart. Their DD's were not talented enough to pitch varsity in the districts that they were living so they quit their jobs and moved to a small town so their DD's could pitch varsity.