I'd like to discuss again the pros and cons of over-distance pitching drills.

[Rich Balswick]

I have increasing concerns with this practice. I'm aware of many students being encouraged to just let it rip from increasing distances and I'm always wondering what it is suppose to accomplish. One of my better students in college became so confused about her release point that it could have destroyed her if she hadn't finally stopped and I could go on and on with destructive examples of kids trying to reach home plate from center field etc.
The one place I've discovered over distance pitching drills being effective is with the rise ball because if it is done correctly with very advanced students, their release point and posture is not adversely effected and if anything, if effectively done, can help them learn to throw their rise ball lower by adjusting their posture to keep from pitching the ball way over the head of their catcher at over distance. I should add here that it often takes years to have students to be able to throw from regular distance with a true rise ball without losing their effective spin and posture and many students never do.
The worst thing I see from my perspective is when my students, who have been taught to throw their fastball (peel drop) with straight over spin and effective posture, are being asked to pitch from significant distance with something else other than the rise ball. If a pitcher is using contact with the hip as Rick Pauly has described, I don't see how a pitcher can do this without the ball diving into the ground.
I am purposely leaving much unsaid about my perspective and I hope I'm teachable enough to adjust my thinking if somebody makes sense.

 

[starsnuffer]

Teaching a pitcher how to adjust is THE single most important thing we can teach them. If the pitcher is "destroyed" because they can't figure out how to throw the ball lower, they were taught wrong.

-W

 

[Boomers2012]

Very interesting points. I am just a bucketdad trying to learn as much as i can to enable my DD to hopefully reach her potential. For DD, as it pertains to underhand long toss, i have always been on the fence as to wether i find it helpful or not. It seemed like when we did this she was trying to muscle the ball as hard as she could so she could make it to me thus losing the whip. Just speaking from my experience from playing long toss with my DD. Im sure others have found it useful....just not for us at this point.

 

[guero_gordo]

Teaching a pitcher how to adjust is THE single most important thing we can teach them. If the pitcher is "destroyed" because they can't figure out how to throw the ball lower, they were taught wrong.

-W

Rich's coaching body of work stands for itself. I doubt any of the countless pitchers and numerous coaches he has taught would agree that they were taught "wrong".

 

[sluggers]

First, we need to define "long toss". So, I'm referring to 50 to 70 feet.

Note that Starsnuffer and the OP said "destroyed". I agree if a kid can't find the strike zone after 15 minutes of long toss, then the kid doesn't know how to pitch.

First, my DD's PC worked with groups of 20 kids at a time. (Kind of strange, but it was 3 to 4 hours, and she had plenty of face time). He PC produced many D1 pitchers better than my DD--Michigan, Stanford, Colgate, Illinois, Harvard, etc.) All the kids would do "long toss" from perhaps 60 feet. No one had any problems finding the strike zone after long toss.

Second, many MLB pitches use long toss.

MLB article regarding long toss

It seems to me that the release point of a baseball pitcher would also change. So, if it doesn't affect them, it is hard for me to believe it is detrimental to softball pitchers.

(I don't think long toss is great, but it is one more way to keep the child interested.)

 

[marriard]

I assume we are talking the 'long toss' debate... I had been waiting for part II of this discussion to come out and it just did:

Long Toss Part I
Long Toss Part II

I don't let me DD 'rip it' full speed from 2nd base. It is a longer, 3/4 speed arced pitch. If you are trying to throw a strike from 2nd base out that would concern me. We don't do it often, but we do it probably bi-weekly.

 

[Rich Balswick]

Teaching a pitcher how to adjust is THE single most important thing we can teach them. If the pitcher is "destroyed" because they can't figure out how to throw the ball lower, they were taught wrong.

-W

Starsnuffer,

I couldn't agree more about the importance of making effective adjustments and that the mechanics we teach must facilitate that skill. My concern is that when a pitcher has been taught a discipline of posture to throw a drop 43' and the over distance drill requires her to start releasing the ball way forward from her hip distorting her normal release posture to keep the ball air born longer it becomes counter productive. The way I teach the height of the pitch is very much influenced by the height of the back hip and the extra distance on a pitch that has forward spin becomes quickly prohibitive. The adjustments that I want to make on the height of a drop involves only a few inches; so that is one of the things I practice so I can make very subtle adjustments. To do that the ball is always released while the forearm is in contact with the hip. In a sense with this concept I can't let go of the ball sooner or later; but with a slightly different posture to control the height of the pitch. Significant over distance throwing destroys this discipline and especially with the drop. Merry Christmas! I can't believe I'm doing this tonight.

 

[Rich Balswick]

First, we need to define "long toss". So, I'm referring to 50 to 70 feet.

Note that Starsnuffer and the OP said "destroyed". I agree if a kid can't find the strike zone after 15 minutes of long toss, then the kid doesn't know how to pitch.

First, my DD's PC worked with groups of 20 kids at a time. (Kind of strange, but it was 3 to 4 hours, and she had plenty of face time). He PC produced many D1 pitchers better than my DD--Michigan, Stanford, Colgate, Illinois, Harvard, etc.) All the kids would do "long toss" from perhaps 60 feet. No one had any problems finding the strike zone after long toss.

Second, many MLB pitches use long toss.

MLB article regarding long toss

It seems to me that the release point of a baseball pitcher would also change. So, if it doesn't affect them, it is hard for me to believe it is detrimental to softball pitchers.

(I don't think long toss is great, but it is one more way to keep the child interested.)

In my opinion sluggers it is a tad inaccurate to compare "long toss" in baseball with softball pitching drills that tend to encourage such forced action so much of the time. However, with the rise ball ( especially in the last few weeks) I like my few advanced pitchers to in a sense "toss" their rise ball in a very relaxed flowing manner letting the ball carry like a frisbee, if its spinning effectively, over significant extra distance. When this is being done this way, instead of a kid "coming out of their shoes" to throw it hard, it more closely resembles the concept and theory of "long toss" in baseball.
I might add that because of the direction of the spin on the rise ball, it doesn't require a significant posture change at release point to cause the ball to carry a long way.

 

[Rich Balswick]

guero

I couldn't help but notice your quote by Carl Rogers.... "All facts are friendly". Maybe because it's almost midnight here, I'm not sure I agree. I believe it's possible that something could be very factual or true; but be very unkind. I hope I'm not being unkind eh! Anyhow, it's almost Christmas and I am going to celebrate my Savior's birth!

 

[GatorGirl]

Are we talking about "pitching from long distance" or just underhand tossing from long distance? If it is just toss or catch, is there a strike zone or release point? I understand that a good release point in toss or catch will get it better to your partner, but is this really akin to the release point for a pitcher. Just trying to clarify for my understanding of what you are asking.

We used under-hand long toss to help her find her whip and lose the muscling the ball around. I reiterated that we aren't pitching, just get me the ball and said just whip it to me. We are only 6 months into this journey with a 75 pound 9 year old, so if my comments aren't adding to the discussing, please disregard.

GG