I find it hard to believe this is true about learning movement pitches.

[shaker1]

Decent drop here. 65 mph, I count 7 revolutions hand to glove, i figure it takes that pitch .39 secs to get there. Not the best at math, but feel free to do your own, I come up with right at 18 rps. Does this match up with what you guys that use the Rev fire see, movement wise? Would you call this a rollover?

 

[Hillhouse]

Point of order.... Finch rarely actually did what she teaches when she pitched.

Second, I still maintain that the MAJORITY of those who claim to throw a roll over actually roll it off the fingers before they turn their wrist over.

And while this statement may bring me some heat, I'd like to know why I cannot name a single pitcher at the Men's World championship level that throws a turn over drop. In fact, while I have been pitching my entire life, I never even heard of a turn over drop until I got into the PC business. Since the majority, obviously not Slugger's DD since her's was only 4 mph slower, of "turn over drop" pitchers throw the ball significantly slower than the "fastball" we cannot confuse good pitching with bad hitting. A slower pitch, delivered by someone changing their entire motion without any thrust from the rubber should be easily seen and crushed. If it's not, it could be a case of poor hitting instead of good pitching.

Bill

 

[_MIA_]

Not sure you can draw any meaningful conclusion from this information. You are making the assumption that the intent of the pitcher is to throw the curve with the same velocity as their fastball. Which begs the question why would any pitcher want to have 2 pitches with the exact same velocity? While I agree that mechanically it is possible for a baseball pitcher to throw a FB with greater velocity compared to a curve, the MLB data is not really applicable.

With respect to the bolded, I guarantee you that if a baseball pitcher could throw his curve as fast as his fastball, that pitch would be in his repertoire. Doesn't mean he would always throw it that fast but a 98 mph curveball would be hell on earth to hit...This was hard enough to hit at high 80's..

https://twitter.com/pitchingninja/status/932065401877487617?lang=en

The comment on the tweet is relevant to as why you want to throw it as fast as your fastball sometimes. Pitchers get GOOD batters out by changing planes and changing speeds along with proper location. The intent of a good hard curveball and an off-speed pitch(breaking ball or changeup) are both the same..make the batter think it is a fastball.

Also, I know nothing about fastpitch pitching other than my DD's 10U team needs a few more good ones

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Point of order.... Finch rarely actually did what she teaches when she pitched.

Second, I still maintain that the MAJORITY of those who claim to throw a roll over actually roll it off the fingers before they turn their wrist over.

And while this statement may bring me some heat, I'd like to know why I cannot name a single pitcher at the Men's World championship level that throws a turn over drop. In fact, while I have been pitching my entire life, I never even heard of a turn over drop until I got into the PC business. Since the majority, obviously not Slugger's DD since her's was only 4 mph slower, of "turn over drop" pitchers throw the ball significantly slower than the "fastball" we cannot confuse good pitching with bad hitting. A slower pitch, delivered by someone changing their entire motion without any thrust from the rubber should be easily seen and crushed. If it's not, it could be a case of poor hitting instead of good pitching.

Bill

That is absolutely the case. We've reviewed a lot of video of people performing a rollover drop ... and in all cases the "floppy rolling over hand action" was after the ball had been released ... and that was the case for Slugger's daughter as well. Not detracting from Slugger's daughter's success ... just that her "floppy rolling over hand action" was well after release of the ball.

 

[riseball]

I think the real question is what is the orientation of the fingers at release. Are they perpendicular or parallel to the ground. Some would claim they are two different pitches with the former being a peel and the latter a rollover. Essentially the same pitch, just a different method of achieving the spin.

 

[riseball]

Point of order.... Finch rarely actually did what she teaches when she pitched.

Second, I still maintain that the MAJORITY of those who claim to throw a roll over actually roll it off the fingers before they turn their wrist over.

And while this statement may bring me some heat, I'd like to know why I cannot name a single pitcher at the Men's World championship level that throws a turn over drop. In fact, while I have been pitching my entire life, I never even heard of a turn over drop until I got into the PC business. Since the majority, obviously not Slugger's DD since her's was only 4 mph slower, of "turn over drop" pitchers throw the ball significantly slower than the "fastball" we cannot confuse good pitching with bad hitting. A slower pitch, delivered by someone changing their entire motion without any thrust from the rubber should be easily seen and crushed. If it's not, it could be a case of poor hitting instead of good pitching.

Bill

While I agree that what you describe is not a best practice, I think you are confusing your experience in the men's game with the reality of the women's game. This is hardly the case except with the very best of the best hitters in the women's game. The vast majority of hitters even in the SEC, PAC 12, etc. will not pick up on this. That said, I am sure we will hear from the parents of kids on 12U Platinum Select Elite teams who will insist every player on their squad has the hitting acumen of Sierra Romero.

 

[Hillhouse]

While I agree that what you describe is not a best practice, I think you are confusing your experience in the men's game with the reality of the women's game. This is hardly the case except with the very best of the best hitters in the women's game. The vast majority of hitters even in the SEC, PAC 12, etc. will not pick up on this. That said, I am sure we will hear from the parents of kids on 12U Platinum Select Elite teams who will insist every player on their squad has the hitting acumen of Sierra Romero.

Maybe so. But, the current state of the women's game has the men's game's fingerprints all over it now days. I could rattle off 2 dozen guys I played with and against that are now coaching college softball and introducing the "men's style" to the women's game. Soon, the line between the 2 styles of play will be so blurred the only thing separating the 2 will be the speed in which the men play vs. the women. But more and more men's players are getting into the game and changing it drastically. 10 years ago, I doubt Michele Smith knew what picking the pitcher was. And now, they talk about it constantly. The pitchers do the crazy twist to the side trying to hide their grip from the 3rd base coach because more and more coaches are learning how to pick. I think I've told the story before about the 2006 games where Ueno was dominating the USA team, then Mike Candrea had a few of the USA men sit at a game or 2, picked her change up and then the USA neutralized her. The following year, 2007 on Japan's USA tour, they did not bring Ueno wanting to keep her away from prying eyes before the '08 Olympics. Ueno tweaked a few things and the US didn't have her pitches picked at the Games, the rest is history. Just take a look at some of the top softball countries in the world: USA (coached by Ken Eriksen, former USA team catcher), Australia (coached by former New Zealand Nat'l team member Fabian Barlow), Canada (coached by Mark Smith and Dave Paetkeau, both former Team Canada and world champion players). In fact, Smith is considered one of the top pitchers of all time. Italy was or is coached by NZ National team players. In '08, China had Rob Schweyer on staff to throw BP, pick pitchers, etc. then China pulled a very crappy move which is a story for another time. Anyway, my point is, as more and more men's players enter the women's game, the more the women's game resembles the men's game in terms of gamesmanship, style of play, etc. I realize I may be biased and possibly in the minority but, I see the women's game changing (for the better) as this transition happens.

All of that being said, more guys need to work with the younger players to teach them these things as they grow up. Personally, I threw BP to Oregon's Jenna Lilly since she was 10 years old every week. She learned to adjust her swing to hit movement, speed changes, etc. We also worked on how to read a pitcher to know what's coming in advance. And, with total honesty, by the time she was a senior in HS, I found it near impossible to fool her. Now, I didn't reach back and throw as hard as possible (but I was throwing harder than anyone she'd be facing in games and with movement), she didn't square up every ball for a solid shot, but she was RARELY fooled by what I threw and it was very hard to strike her out in our "mini games" we'd play while she took her hitting from me. It's all well and good to have Mike White yelling "DO IT" and other codes for when he has the opposing pitcher picked, but if the hitter has not learned how to use that to her advantage, then it's not really helping her. However, it can really rattle a pitcher to know that the coach is relaying every pitch to the hitters and all it takes is one pitch to be crushed. It can be on account of the coach relaying to the hitter, it can be the pitcher rattled by the coach and makes a mistake, or other factors.

Bottom line is, I see the changes happening and it's really adding excitement to the games. Now if we could just get ESPN to hire announcers that don't make our ears bleed!

Bill

 

[riseball]

I do not think you can conflate what is happening in a very few isolated programs and state the game in general is moving in that direction. Maybe within a few top college programs and the NPF, but not throughout college or the game in general. Many involved in the womens game are not even aware that there is a mens game.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The beauty of competition is that many that embrace it will continuously search for better solutions. Over time, the better solutions will gravitate towards the top. That progress is often slowed by those that have played the game and teach the game primarily as they recall being taught. The edge can sometimes go to those that haven't played the game and take an independent view. Mike Candrea didn't play the game, but was a fairly decent student of the game. Then again, you get folks like Mike White who have played the game and who have been a student of the game ... which is a decent combination.

Personally I believe there is a lot to be learned from men's fastpitch. Comes down to whether folks wish to search in that area while looking for better solutions. Some do ... some don't.

 

[sluggers]

Personally I believe there is a lot to be learned from men's fastpitch.

Nah. eople have been saying that for 30+ years now. It doesn't take a team of scientists studying fastpitch 24x7 to figure out the game.

Basics of men's fastpitch 2018: Pitcher mows through batter until pitcher makes a mistake. Batter hits home run. Game over. The results would be the same if they used home run derby rules.

As to Mike White...I'm sure he is very knowledgeable and a nice guy. But, you win at the collegiate level by recruiting and identifying talent, not because of some secret.

And, to be honest, there are lots of women who are as good or better coaches than White.