how to appeal call

[coachdan]

I have a question about a play that happened this weekend. ASA rules

Tying run on 3rd and go ahead run on 2nd ...one out. Batter hits a fly ball to center .....both runners tag. Runner on 3 leaves early center fielder throws home but no way to get the girl that left early so we cut the ball and go to 3rd and got out #2 at 3rd base. I instructed my player to step on 3rd base because runner left early. We did not get the call...don't know if blue just didn't see it or got lost in the play because of the secondary play at 3rd.

My question is how should I have handled the appeal for runner leaving early after a secondary play was made?

 

[coachtucc]

this should be right...have pitcher go to the mound...call time and tell the umpire that you are appealing! Not sure if you need to throw the ball to the base as in baseball

 

[BretMan]

No need to have the pitcher get the ball, or get on the pitcher's plate, or wait for the ball to made live, or make a throw over to the missed base. None of that is necessary to make an appeal in ASA softball (or, most other softball rule sets).

Softball allows dead ball appeals and all those require is for any infielder, with or without the ball, to verbally state to the umpire what is being appealed. After the play was over, you could have waited for the umpire to call "time", or asked for "time", and appealed that way.

Of course, live ball appeals are still an option. Those can be made by any fielder holding the ball and touching either the base or the runner. If time had not yet been called, you could have executed a live ball appeal.

Did your fielder get the ball, step on third base, and then just stand there? You have to make it clear what exactly is being appealed (what rule violation and by which runner). If she just stood there, it may not have been clear to the umpire what was being appealed.

Did the umpire actually rule and signal "safe" following your appeal attempt? If so, then he has ruled upon the appeal- just not in your favor with the ruling you would like to hear. In that case, there would be nothing you could have done differently to change the call. The umpire either didn't see the runner leave eraly, or saw her and judged that she did not leave early. Appealling in a different manner isn't going to change that!

 

[coachdan]

No need to have the pitcher get the ball, or get on the pitcher's plate, or wait for the ball to made live, or make a throw over to the missed base. None of that is necessary to make an appeal in ASA softball (or, most other softball rule sets).

Softball allows dead ball appeals and all those require is for any infielder, with or without the ball, to verbally state to the umpire what is being appealed. After the play was over, you could have waited for the umpire to call "time", or asked for "time", and appealed that way.

Of course, live ball appeals are still an option. Those can be made by any fielder holding the ball and touching either the base or the runner. If time had not yet been called, you could have executed a live ball appeal.

Did your fielder get the ball, step on third base, and then just stand there? You have to make it clear what exactly is being appealed (what rule violation and by which runner). If she just stood there, it may not have been clear to the umpire what was being appealed.

Did the umpire actually rule and signal "safe" following your appeal attempt? If so, then he has ruled upon the appeal- just not in your favor with the ruling you would like to hear. In that case, there would be nothing you could have done differently to change the call. The umpire either didn't see the runner leave eraly, or saw her and judged that she did not leave early. Appealling in a different manner isn't going to change that!

How do the mechanics work.....does field ump have the catch or the tag. In our situation when I had my play step on 3rd (time had not been called) and I the coach told the ump we were appealing runner on 3rd leaving early. Field ump said home play ump had the tag and he had the catch. When talking to Ump behind the plate he said he had the catch and that was not his call. Needless to say there was never a save call made....no call was ever made

 

[BretMan]

Strictly by the book, the plate umpire has all tag-ups at third base. He would also have the catch/no catch call on the fly ball to the outfield. No way of knowing if these umpires had agreed to deviate from those standard mechanics.

But...back to what I said before. It doesn't seem like it matters one bit how you appealed this (which was your question). If neither umpire saw it, neither should be calling an out here- no matter how you execute your appeal.

 

[T Red]

Looks like that would be a lot for the plate ump to watch for at one time. Both the catch and runners tagging. Especially if the catch is far from the runner & tag.

 

[BretMan]

Looks like that would be a lot for the plate ump to watch for at one time. Both the catch and runners tagging. Especially if the catch is far from the runner & tag.

Such are the trade-offs of the two-umpire system. You have two sets of eyes to watch more than two different things! But the prescribed umpire mechanics have evolved over a hundred years and tend to take these kinds of things into account. For every situation there are standard guidelines as to which umpire covers what portion of the field.

IF...the base umpire has the catch/no catch in the outfield, his back will be to the infield. No way can he watch the catch and the tag up at third.

IF...the base umpire were to have the catch, but not the tag up, then the plate umpire would still have to see both to judge if the runner left early.

IF...base umpire had the catch and plate umpire had the tag up...who do you think is watching the other runners for tag ups, obstruction, interference, missed bases, etc.

It's fairly easy for the plate umpire to line things up if he doesn't just stand there like a statue. On a ball hit to center, sliding up the 3B line, back into foul territory, can allow both outfielder and third base to be fairly well lined up- or, at least, well enough within your field of view to get a good look at both with a slight swivel of the head.

 

[MTR]

How do the mechanics work.....does field ump have the catch or the tag. In our situation when I had my play step on 3rd (time had not been called) and I the coach told the ump we were appealing runner on 3rd leaving early. Field ump said home play ump had the tag and he had the catch. When talking to Ump behind the plate he said he had the catch and that was not his call. Needless to say there was never a save call made....no call was ever made

Just a note: Not that it makes a difference here, but a coach does not have the authority to request an appeal involving a play on the field.

 

[BretMan]

Yes, a very important point!

In the first post I commented on, it wasn't mentioned that the coach made the verbal appeal to the umpire and I missed that fact in the second post. That's not a valid appeal in ASA (though it is in some other rule sets). In ASA it has to be a player, as noted in the appeal methods I posted above. Coaches can appeal some things, like batting out of order, but not a missed base or one left too soon on a catch.

 

[coachdan]

Yes, a very important point!

In the first post I commented on, it wasn't mentioned that the coach made the verbal appeal to the umpire and I missed that fact in the second post. That's not a valid appeal in ASA (though it is in some other rule sets). In ASA it has to be a player, as noted in the appeal methods I posted above. Coaches can appeal some things, like batting out of order, but not a missed base or one left too soon on a catch.

When I stated that I appealed let be clear up what I did.....After the play had finished and the 2nd out was recorded at 3rd base, I from the dugout told my 3rd baseman to go over and tag 3rd base because runner left early. When she went and tagged the base no call was made save or out, so then is when I told the ump she was standing on 3rd base to appeal the runner leaving early. All of this was done from the dugout and ball was still live......don't know if that makes a difference thats why I ask the question because I'm not sure of the correct way to handle situation and I would like to kow for the next time it happends.