Front Toss Batting Practice

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jim, IMO you are mixing up the “Hanson Principle” with the concept of “Actions Under The Hood”.

When you commented that video shows us what happened … at that point you were talking relative to the “Hanson Principle”.

When you commented on the cause of pronation, then you were on the concept more in tune with “Actions Under The Hood”.

Different concepts.

The “Hanson Principle”, while not full proof, is a valuable tool. For example, if someone is telling you something about a rear forearm being perfectly vertically stacked, even to the position of ‘bat lag’ … then a quick application of the Hanson Principle will filter that out.

Basically, the “Hanson Principle” is a filter that allows you to quickly filter out misinformation.

The concept of “Actions Under The Hood” attempts to go further … and is the study of the actions below the surface … to which the “Hanson Principle” is then applied. For example … Jim Dixon’s belief was that there were multiple under-the-hood actions that could lead to a similar visual surface actions … yet the best athletes employed a particular set of “Actions Under The Hood”, whereas average hitters did not.

By combining the approaches, much can be learned … that is, testing various “Actions Under The Hood”, measuring results, collecting video, and screening that video with the “Hanson Principle”.

Bottom-line for me anyway … is that the “Hanson Principle”, while not full proof, allows for the quick screening out of bad information. And let’s face it … there is a lot of bad information out there … and many times, avoiding taking steps backwards can be quite valuable ... and make a significant difference in terms of how a hitter progresses over time.

The Hanson Principle
“Always compare what anybody tells you about the swing to slow motion clips of the best hitters in the world”.
-- Mark Hanson

 

[SBFAMILY]

Thanks Jim couldn't have put it better.

 

[PEPPERS]

Before reading this, understand that I look at and analyze a ton of video.

This is just my opinion and I understand all of the perspectives on this topic, but the Hanson Principle can be misleading and sometimes dangerous in the realm of coaching hitting and pitching. Do baseball pitchers put effort into making their throwing arm pronate on every pitch? The Hanson Principle says they should try to do so, right? If a pitcher said that they tried to just stay behind the ball with their hand, the Hanson Principle should then make them out to be fools that do not know what they are talking about? Right?

Letting some of the aspects in the swing happen naturally for the hitter is the art in coaching. We don't need to tell or show them every aspect of the swing that we know.

Video shows what happened, it does not show what the hitter felt in the swing. Both are important and not one more than the other.

I take that back, feel may be more important.

Coaching requires the ability to adjust in and of itself. Some players need to feel one portion of the swing more than others and vice versa. Just because something happens in someone's swing on video doesn't mean that everyone should focus and feel that as well.
Heck, that hitter may not even know that he/she was doing it in the first place.

Coaching is more an art than it is a science. Knowledge is needed, but knowing how and when to use the knowledge is the art.

Just my opinion.

Great post Jim!

IMO great hitters adjust from pitch to pitch and are able to hit good pitches, they work on eliminating weak spots in the swing and are able to feel the difference. Average hitters look for the pitcher to make that big mistake, which some do not.

I like live pitching from proper distance which I can pitch, pitching machine placed a proper distance of release of ball by the pitcher and feeder doing arm circle and feeding machine, tee work, side toss, drop drill, and occasionally front toss.

When I do front toss I do full arm circle and pitch behind a net, at a recent camp daughter hit a ball through a net that has a hole for pitching machine and injured a college senior when she did not get the hand back quick enough, when doing front toss. As SB advised in his post there is an art to doing it all correctly, and my daughter loves doing side toss as SB described and comes home complaining, because the players toss to each other and she describes it as a mess and she firmly believes it has a negative effect on her and her teammates.

Front toss, I’ve seen overhand, full circle, pendulum type swing back and throw and some take a running start. IMO at the shorter distance you to need to make sure to give the hitter time to use proper mechanics load, stride and swing (age, distance and ability of hitter). If you are too close and too fast the hitter can develop poor mechanics if not given time to use proper mechanics.

JMO.

 

[Wellphyt]

Some of us who teach hitting have zero interest in reinventing the swing. We use the Hanson Principle in order to copy what the best hitters in the world do. I don't see how studying video of what the best hitters do can be misleading. A person's interpretation of the video can be wrong, however the video itself is an accurate depiction of what hitters do when they swing.

It's fairly common for coaches and instructors to teach kids movements that do not match video of what the best hitters do. One way to verify that is to study video of what the best hitters do and compare it to what the instructor says to do. Another option is to video yourself swinging using various apporaches and compare your swing to the pros. You can also compare what others say about the swing to resouces such as "The Science of Hitting".

One thing I see a lot of in my area are coaches and instructors confusing style with tecnhique or vice-a-versa. An example would be an instructor or coach who teaches players to start in their stance with the bat tapping the pony-tail area. I take this as an indication that the instructor/coach doesn't understand the under-the-hood movement responsible for the hands getting flat. So they start the player with flat hands in an attempt to get the right "look" as the player launches their swing. A truly knowledgable instructor will teach the player the underlying movement and let the player hold the bat the way they are most comfortable. The underlying movement is the technique part of the swing while the handset the player chooses to use to hold the bat is their own personal style. Using video helps me to separate the wheat from the chafe.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

You nailed it Wellphyt.

The Hanson Principle simply helps filter out bad information.

I do understand that certain people don’t like the Hanson Principle. Let’s face it, if you are teaching something different that does not comply with how the best hitters in the game swing a bat, then you either adapt what you are teaching or you make up an excuse as to why you teach swing mechanics that are observably different than how the best hitters swing.

It is also my experience that as an instructor focuses more importance on various “actions under the hood”, that they tend to be more relaxed in allowing various styles to exist and not attempt to force a cookie-cutter type mentality. It’s a belief that the “actions under the hood” govern the result.

 

[FPMark]

Under the hood actions are the difference between a great hitter and a weak hitter. Video evidence of under the hood actions are the easiest way to see, and get a better understanding of, what the best hitters do. I had never heard of "The Hanson Principle" before coming to this forum. I had never heard of "The Move" before reading about it on this forum. Thanks to reasonable discussion and video evidence, followed by my personal expirimentation with swinging a bat, I now understand an aspect of the swing that I had never even thought about before.

I am not a profesional hitting coach, but I do have the most important student in the game;... my DD. Thanks to my understanding more about the technical aspect of hitting, I have been able to help her become a much better hitter. FFS is correct when he says that the Hanson principle is usefull as a filter to distinguish good information from bad. There is always more bad information out there than good. Some of it comes from hitting instuctors in my area.

Does my DD understand all the technical information on this forum? Nope. She doesn't have to. I do, and I'm the one who translates it into things she can do and understand. I believe I am typical of most readers on this forum, and I say this without meaning any disrespect to anyone, but, if you disagree with anyone else's point of view, then debate the reasons. Don't just start personal attacs. I don't care about anyone on here's personal accomplishments. (If my DD gets to play in college I guess I can claim 100% student to college success ratio. ) All I care about is information relevant to hitting. If you have info relevant to the topic, post it. But if you do, be ready to defend it, or amend it. Video is always a good way to defend your point.

Thanks

 

[Jim]

Video is one of many tools needed in coaching. It shows what happened, not always why it happened. Anyone can look at video of a good hitter and tell another hitter "do that". The explaination of how and why with hitters of different shapes and sizes is where the art comes in to play.

 

[FPMark]

Video is one of many tools needed in coaching. It shows what happened, not always why it happened. Anyone can look at video of a good hitter and tell another hitter "do that". The explaination of how and why with hitters of different shapes and sizes is where the art comes in to play.

Yep,.... and the debate over "why" is the key to gaining understanding. Because with video, any answer to "why" that is contrary to what is seen, can be dismissed as wrong, while any answer NOT disproven by video can be honestly debated.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Yep,.... and the debate over "why" is the key to gaining understanding. Because with video, any answer to "why" that is contrary to what is seen, can be dismissed as wrong, while any answer NOT disproven by video can be honestly debated.

IMO, it's the "how" that's the challenge if you want to be a successfull hitting instructor. Often times high-level athletes are among the worst at trying to teach how to do something because they don't actually do what they think they do. It's about being able to communicate with individuals with varying levels of ability and different learning styles.

 

[Jim]

IMO, it's the "how" that's the challenge if you want to be a successfull hitting instructor. Often times high-level athletes are among the worst at trying to teach how to do something because they don't actually do what they think they do. It's about being able to communicate with individuals with varying levels of ability and different learning styles.

Absolutely! And the key point that you mentioned is communication.