For the sake of argument:

[starsnuffer]

I always understood that the amount of the ball that had to be in the strike zone was up to interpretation, and the softball is pretty damn big. I've seen umpires that want the entire ball to be over the white of the plate, and other umpires that just the edge of the ball over the black of the plate is fine. The important thing is that the strike zone remains the same for both teams. If your pitcher can't adapt to the umpires strike zone, she's a lousy pitcher.

-W

 

[quincy]

At least at Rec. you will have a lot of the Board members at the games. Mostly to enjoy the games but they are observing the umpires and coaches.

 

[tghorley]

Rubbish! If a single call "cost" any team the game, they did not play well enough to win to begin.

That quote is too funny to reply. So guess what, I won't.

 

[Sweet Lou]

BTW, another thing I keep coming upon, the plate is constantly defined as 17 inches. Can anyone direct me to he change where the black is included in the strike zone and thus the area expanded to an area larger than 17 inches?

I could be wrong but I thought the plate was 17" wide and that the 17" included the black. Not that white part is 17" and the black is added to it.

Also I thought the rule book states if any part of the ball passes over any part of the plate it is stike. Since the ball has a diameter of ~3.8" the stike zone would effectively be about 23" since if the outside edge ball is 3" off the plate on either side will still have an edge pass over the zone.

Though I fully admit I could be wrong on one or both of the above.

I know that doesn't explain a ball in the other batters box being called a stike but heck it happens sometimes even in MLB. Livan Hernadez set a then NLCS record of 15 stikeouts in a game back in 1997 as Eric Gregg kept expanding the zone out farther and Livan kept hitting Charles Johnson's glove. October 12, 1997 National League Championship Series (NLCS) Game 5, Braves at Marlins - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[DOG310]

Typically, I am in the camp that says the ump calls them the way he/she sees them, so live with it, especially balls and strikes! If you, the coach, don't agree you go out and have a civil conversation, ask umpire if his/her partner can be checked with and move on. I also teach DD umpires are human and when she stops making errors or begins hitting every strike over the fence then she can complain about their mistakes.

But, recently I've noticed more umpires with the insecure attitude of some here, that is to say, I'm never wrong, how dare you ask me to check with my partner on a check swing or anything else? These same umpires have rabbit ears for anything that they perceive to be questioning of their authority and are masters at answering questions with another question.

Don't get me wrong, I've spent my entire adult life employed in an authoritarian military and military like environments, but I believe that just like military and police there are a small percentage of insecure beings drawn into umpiring for the power trip and ego boosts that they need.

That said umpiring is a tough job and I want nothing to do with it.

 

[MTR]

MTR, you don't know me but many here do. It is easy enough for most of them to find out whether I am exaggerating or not. In fact, there are at least a dozen who know me on this site. The home run is no exaggeration at all. It was called foul and it was a 3 run homerun. It was in the 6th inning and the team did not score again but lost by one. The other team did not score as well.

Don’t care, I stand by my assessment that if you believe one call “cost” the game, you didn’t play well enough to win. Of course, when you hear some putz scream, “you costs us the game” you have to wonder what s/he thought of the multiple errors, dozen walks, multiple IPs, loads of missed swings, bad throws, etc. I guess that had absolutely nothing to do because that umpire made a call with which you disagree at that single advantageous moment, right.

It is true in any competition, if you don’t want the officials to make a ruling that affects your play, don’t give them the opportunity.

MTR, in your opinion, could any of the scenerios I laid out be possible? If so, which ones?

Didn’t say they were not possible, but we are talking about “fan” on a public forum presenting what is a one-sided story. It is amazing how many times I’m offered scenarios and never get 100% of the story the first couple of times, even from umpires.

BTW, another thing I keep coming upon, the plate is constantly defined as 17 inches. Can anyone direct me to he change where the black is included in the strike zone and thus the area expanded to an area larger than 17 inches?

It is an interpretation (for well more than 20 years). ASA prints that interpretation in their clinic guide. And any umpire who states with certainty that they can tell an orb less that 4” in diameter moving at 50+ mph caught the black, but not the white part of the plate is either lying (more like bragging) or is the calibration gauge for the Hubble Telescope.

It is also a point that a pitched ball which touches home plate cannot be called a strike, so you think the umpire can tell the difference of whether the ball touched the white or the black?

Home plates, unfortunately, in the past have not all been manufactured or installed the same on every field. Some are buried, some are just laid down. There are home plates constructed completely of white rubber, some with a white plate laid in a black base. Some have the 17” included in just the white portion, some have the beveled edges included in the 17”. I’ve even come across home plates made of wood.

MTR, if you don't mind, could you explain this quote, "Good idea since that is neither your position and, if involving the game, a very unprofessional move."

I’m sort of caught between two planes here. You didn’t note it, so I was torn between whether you are talking about this as a fan, coach or parent, so I’m addressing as a fan and parent who also coaches.

I always understood that the amount of the ball that had to be in the strike zone was up to interpretation, and the softball is pretty damn big. I've seen umpires that want the entire ball to be over the white of the plate, and other umpires that just the edge of the ball over the black of the plate is fine.

In all my baseball and softball training over the last 45+ years, it has always been a constant “any part of the ball” enters the strike zone.

The important thing is that the strike zone remains the same for both teams. If your pitcher can't adapt to the umpires strike zone, she's a lousy pitcher.

It is a shame that there is so much variance that this is sometimes an issue, but it is and your statement (other than the lousy pitcher part) is absolutely true.

MTR - 2 Questions - In what association is home plate wider than 17"?

Already answered, at least in ASA

And secondly, isn't possible that an umpire could be wrong, even just once. And, FWIW, just because an umpire, or anyone else for that matter, is paid to do a specific job and, therefore, technically can be considered a professional, doesn't make them a professional. I don't doubt that you are a fine umpire worthy of respect, but get off your horse and acknowledge that some others are not.

I never stated umpires didn’t make mistakes. An umpire who says s/he doesn’t make mistakes or doesn’t care to improve is the ones you need to avoid, I do. BTW, you take money for the job, you are a professional, like it or not. Whether one acts like a professional is another story.

However, when it comes to this thread, I’d like to reference the subject line.

After all, what is seen from the stands, fence, dugout, etc. isn’t always the same as the umpire who is often restricted to the angles available to him/her. So, it is not as much a possibility that the person presenting a scenario may have been in error as it is for the umpire? I know when I observe umpires and games that it is not unusual that I see things they did not and I knew, could not. That is the difference between an evaluator and a fan. And evaluator will not make an instant judgment on right or wrong, but will note it and ask the umpire what they saw during a particular play. That helps the umpire as much as it does the evaluator to understand what occurred.

 

[tghorley]

Hmmmm, just thinking about the home run called foul in the original post. Is this a call the batter or coach can ask the PU for help from the BU?

 

[GOINGDEEP]

I'd have to say "yes", one bad call can cost a game. Doesn't matter when in the game it is. But most will blame it on the "losing" call in a tie situation.

I can't count how many times a bad plate call has cost teams over my 30 years of ball. Had one last night that "could have cost us". Last inning we are up 3-0. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Smash to RF scores both runners. The 2nd run was dead by 2 feet, but we were playing away and the blue either botched the call or gave it away. Tying run on second, got a K ( 2 outs ). Girl hits a gap shot, that CF does a diving catch for ballgame.

One more foot to the right, no way she could have got it. Then it would be a tie game because of the bad call. Who knows how things would unfold in extra innings?

 

[starsnuffer]

The strike zone hasn't changed in 100 years, but the bats and training certianly have. Teach your kids to hit a 26" zone and you won't have to play "walk to win" softball. There's no reason they can't be successful with today's equipment and plenty of room for error on the calls for either side of the plate.

Your kids don't get a hit every at bat, and the umpire isn't going to make the right call every at bat for the same reason. It's not easy. Hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball. Spend the energy on those things, learn to do them well, and your players will benefit from the energy you spend. They won't benefit at all from complaining about umpires.

-W

 

[MTR]

MTR, I guess your right, if they had scored at least 2 more than the other team as defined by a "fair ball" in the rule book, then they would have done enough to win. Wait...

Really? Even the SP players understand that one.

So, I'm looking for that rule on the plate 17 inches and the black incorporated. I find where the ASA does consider the black a part of the plate but the definition that I have found still describes the plate at 17 inches. You can't have both.

I told you where it was. If you want to play dumb, feel free.

MTR, one of the major issues I found on the umpiring websites, and there were a bunch of them, is the "two balls out" controversy. Why would one ball out be given? The rule defines a strike. So, you just admitted that you can't do your job by enforcing the book.

Really, how did I do that? Are you really this dense or are you pretending for the sake of argument?

If you can't call the book rule on a strike, and you want us to have the impression that you are top of the line, then why does the rule exist? Yes, you should be able to be that good to tell. However, the umpiring websites are all discussing calling "one ball out" and "two balls out." What is that about. So, we teach our hitters to know the zone and players get to the field and the ump changes the rules because they are incompentent and can't call the game by the book. In fact, they need up to 8 inches leeway. That puts the ball, at two balls out, over the inside line of the opposing batter's box. MTR, how can you defend that? Now here is what makes this so much more pathetic. In order to save incompetent umpires, the NCAA has now adopted the MLB Rule for arguing balls and strikes. If a coach questions balls and strikes, they are ejected. Oh, I know the "scoop" from MTR and others that this is to stop coaches from complaining and speed up the game. However, the truth is much bigger than that. (I waiting for that classic line now. bet I get it soon.)

You mean like the fact that the umpire must issue a team warning before any ejection can occur when arguing balls and strikes(NCAA 13.6.4). ASA (4.8.C) has the same rule as does NFHS (3.6.15) has the same rule, but does not call for a warning prior to ejection or bench restriction. But I’m sure you knew that as a HS coach.

Here is another observation. Not many, and maybe only 2 percent, of the umpires that I have observed are really guys that have no control over their lives with the exception of when they are on the field. In that way, they are important and just can't handle that power. So, the game becomes about them. While MTR will never admit that that happens,

You sure do talk a lot of crap without saying much. When was the last time you have attended an umpire clinic or school? Do you really have that little knowledge when it comes to the game and officiating thereof.

You want the umpire to call the rule book? Remember that the next time there is a pitch catching the plate on the river at the armpits and the umpire rings it up. That’s the rule-book strike. And don’t forget that your pitcher gets one minute for a maximum of five warm-up pitches at the beginning of the inning. Of course, you are aware the clock starts the exact moment the umpire calls the last out of the previous half inning. In my 46 years I have never seen a pitcher, baseball, softball, FP, SP, complete this task in the time prescribed. But it’s the right in the rule book and that is what you want, right? And when the tying run is on 3B with 2 outs in the bottom of the 7th shifts feet losing contact with the base for less than a second while the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle, don’t complain when the umpire calls her out to end the game. And don’t get upset when the umpire directs you to return to the coach’s box when you try to give you runner a message. After all, that’s how it is written in the rules and that is what you want, right?

MTR has now admitted that he can not call the book. If he can't call the rule book then what good is the rule? So, when you are facing a college level pitcher, iyo, it doesn't matter if the ump is giving 8 inches outside? starsnuffer, lets suppose that the ump now decides that they will pick some other rule that they will now decide that they will not enforce, is that alright with you?

Wow, you are really something. You aren’t from Ohio, are you? Had a putz at a national who ranted and raved so much other coaches avoided him like the plague. The TD & ASA Rep asked if THEY could throw him out of the tournament. And that was before DE even started. He got dumped in the second inning of the first pool play game for arguing with the umpire about a thin leather strand on the pitcher’s wrist. He was demanding an ejection and a forfeit. He threatened the umpire that he would complain to the UIC, so the umpire gave him permission to leave the remote complex to do so.