Early bat speed.

[tjintx]

Thanks Noontimebaseball.com

J Booth. In this Manny clip do you believe the elbow slotting drives the hands/forearms to torque the barrel OR do you believe the hands/forearms torquing the barrel makes the elbow slot? I am referring to the initial move to swing not any movement thereafter.

 

[jbooth]

J Booth. In this Manny clip do you believe the elbow slotting drives the hands/forearms to torque the barrel OR do you believe the hands/forearms torquing the barrel makes the elbow slot? I am referring to the initial move to swing not any movement thereafter.

Neither.

The radius and ulna remain in neutral as the elbow slots, so there is no torquing or supination there.

The barrel moves rearward mostly from his shoulder movement as he drops the elbow. As the elbow drops there is no pulling the barrel rearward with the hands.

The top palm begins to face up due to shoulder tilt. As it initially starts to face up, you can see that there is no supinating movement of the radius. The supination doesn't occur until later, at about the bat lag position. And even then, the radius supinates with the ulnar deviation.

I explained it in post #261 with this video.

Note how little affect Ryan's back elbow movement has upon the barrel, and how little his hand position changes. He's dropped his elbow and his back shoulder, yet his top palm has barely changed position. It is still facing the pitcher. MLB hitters try to keep the barrel up as long as possible, and then throw it down at the ball. This is a good example;

The barrel movement is mostly due to his change in shoulder position.

From the position where the video stops; he will use a hammering action, (extension of the forearm with elbow/hip as the pivot point and use ulnar deviation. The bat path will flatten out and not go down across the ball, if he keeps his hands up as his shoulder turns toward the ball.

Trout does the same thing here. What you have to note is how close the shaft or middle of the bat stays to the back shoulder. If the hands or arms were applying force to make the barrel go rearward, the shaft would come away from the shoulder very early. It does not, because they are trying NOT to make it go rearward, they are trying to keep it up, and then, throw it down. When you throw down, the barrel still arcs visibly rearward, due to geometry, not from force in that direction. The force is applied downward, which makes the barrel arc down and out.

Note how Trout keeps his hands up. The rear forearm stays horizontal. If the forearm was allowed to angle toward the ground, then the bat path would also go downward across the path of the ball.

 

[HYP]

Jim,

Yes, I believe that MLB hitters try to maintain a loaded barrel until the lead hand gets inside. The barrel is then thrown down to the ball. I just believe the the top hand is turning on top of the forearm to get the barrel moving. The hammering action that I believe you are talking about happens after the forearms have been working to get the barrel moving. It happens at extension. The barrel stays up/loaded, the lead hand moves inside the ball and then the top hand starts applying force to get the barrel moving. Right around contact the hands start the hammering action and then they extend through and then roll over.

IMO, if you wait to apply this force to the barrel with the forearm as you describe. The barrel gets left behind and it becomes hard to square the ball. In other words, once it is time to throw the barrel. The forearms better get to turning the hands to get the barrel moving.

JMHO

 

[tjintx]

Have you ever used a GYRO ball for wrist/forearm exercise or just to play with as a kid? If so, that feeling you get as the GYRO is circling gives a feeling of resistance. That is how I feel the barrel works when the hands/forearms work properly and that is what gives the illusion of inaction between the hands/forearms and barrel when in fact there is a huge amount of resistance building and that is why IMO you see this differently than others. I respect your opinion, thank you for responding yet I respectfully disagree.

 

[jbooth]

Have you ever used a GYRO ball for wrist/forearm exercise or just to play with as a kid? If so, that feeling you get as the GYRO is circling gives a feeling of resistance. That is how I feel the barrel works when the hands/forearms work properly and that is what gives the illusion of inaction between the hands/forearms and barrel when in fact there is a huge amount of resistance building and that is why IMO you see this differently than others. I respect your opinion, thank you for responding yet I respectfully disagree.

That's fine, but my belief is based upon several things. Physics, bio-mechanics and more importantly, what I've heard MANY MLB players say, and demonstrate, to me personally, as well as what I've read in articles and demos I've seen on TV by MLB hitters.

They ALL say they use the hands, they all say they lag the barrel, they all say that they throw the barrel directly at the ball. I have NEVER heard ONE say that they use the arms, or immediately accelerate the barrel rearward.

Physics will confirm that directing the force rearward is not the most effective way to get the barrel accelerated and at maximum potential velocity at contact. The Bio-mechanics that I describe matches with what they say they do and feel, and what can be seen. A hall of famer and a mediocre MLB player, and a former MLB instructor all told me in person what they do. Which is what I have described. If you want to believe otherwise, that's certainly your right.

P.S.

As I told HYP there IS supination of the forearm as you approach contact, and you do feel the hands turning over, BUT, that is later in the process, after launch. The turning of the wrists is not the first action at launch.

The turning over and the snap, (supination and ulnar deviation) occur just before contact, but the initial launch is from starting forearm extension and ulnar deviation. The ulnar deviation completes at contact, but it starts earlier. The sequence is start extension, start deviation, start supination, make contact.

 

[jbooth]

Jim,

Yes, I believe that MLB hitters try to maintain a loaded barrel until the lead hand gets inside. The barrel is then thrown down to the ball. I just believe the the top hand is turning on top of the forearm to get the barrel moving. The hammering action that I believe you are talking about happens after the forearms have been working to get the barrel moving. It happens at extension. The barrel stays up/loaded, the lead hand moves inside the ball and then the top hand starts applying force to get the barrel moving. Right around contact the hands start the hammering action and then they extend through and then roll over.

IMO, if you wait to apply this force to the barrel with the forearm as you describe. The barrel gets left behind and it becomes hard to square the ball. In other words, once it is time to throw the barrel. The forearms better get to turning the hands to get the barrel moving.

JMHO

I think we're in agreement. I think it's just words and descriptions getting in the way. I have said that the hands turn over, it's just not the emphasis in the swing, nor the main source of power.

 

[rdbass]

Noontime gifs:

 

[Cowpoke]

That's fine, but my belief is based upon several things. Physics, bio-mechanics and more importantly, what I've heard MANY MLB players say, and demonstrate, to me personally, as well as what I've read in articles and demos I've seen on TV by MLB hitters.

They ALL say they use the hands, they all say they lag the barrel, they all say that they throw the barrel directly at the ball. I have NEVER heard ONE say that they use the arms, or immediately accelerate the barrel rearward.

Physics will confirm that directing the force rearward is not the most effective way to get the barrel accelerated and at maximum potential velocity at contact. The Bio-mechanics that I describe matches with what they say they do and feel, and what can be seen. A hall of famer and a mediocre MLB player, and a former MLB instructor all told me in person what they do. Which is what I have described. If you want to believe otherwise, that's certainly your right.

P.S.

As I told HYP there IS supination of the forearm as you approach contact, and you do feel the hands turning over, BUT, that is later in the process, after launch. The turning of the wrists is not the first action at launch.

The turning over and the snap, (supination and ulnar deviation) occur just before contact, but the initial launch is from starting forearm extension and ulnar deviation. The ulnar deviation completes at contact, but it starts earlier. The sequence is start extension, start deviation, start supination, make contact.

If it was more forearm, wouldn't you naturally want to seperate the hands when you hold a bat instead of keeping them together?
Seems that would be better from a leverage standpoint if in fact that was the desired end result.

 

[HYP]

P.S.

As I told HYP there IS supination of the forearm as you approach contact, and you do feel the hands turning over, BUT, that is later in the process, after launch. The turning of the wrists is not the first action at launch.

The turning over and the snap, (supination and ulnar deviation) occur just before contact, but the initial launch is from starting forearm extension and ulnar deviation. The ulnar deviation completes at contact, but it starts earlier. The sequence is start extension, start deviation, start supination, make contact.

Jim,

Do you believe between the first pause and the second pause the forearms are turning the hands/applying pressure to turn the hands to get the barrel moving?

Or, do you believe that the hands are pushing forward and then the forearms turn the hands after they have been pushed forward?

Or, do you believe the hands are pushed forward and then the wrist just becomes uncocked?