Dropping the Hands

[Chris O'Leary]

As you may know, I'm a baseball guy who's still learning about the differences between baseball and softball.

One thing that I've run across a number of times is the concept of dropping the hands, and I was wondering if people could confirm whether my impressions are correct or not.

1. Dropping the hands seems to be a bigger problem in softball than baseball (but it isn't just confined to softball). I'm not sure why. I'm not sure if the difference is instructional or strength-related (or both).

2. There seem to be two different definitions of dropping the hands (or misconceptions about when it occurs). Some people talk about it happening during the load. I'd not sure that's always bad, as long as the hands get back up before the shoulders start rotating

3. The universally bad form of dropping the hands seems to be an inefficient adjustment mechanism where you adjust up and down in the strike zone more with the arms (via dropping the hands) than with the body (via tilt). The telltale for that is the hands finishing low, and down around the front hip, on low pitches (when you would expect a high finish).

4. Dropping the hands isn't always bad. I have a clip of a D-1 college hitter missing a home run by a couple of vertical feet while dropping her hands. However, it may be one of those things that only really good athletes can pull off.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[MVLA Softball]

Wow! Chris O'Leary looking for information about hitting.
Hey, I mean that with complete respect. I have benefitted from your posts both here and in the "other" (less helpful) forum. I visit your website regularly in hopes of finding added material. I adopted your use of flipbooks. The players and their parents LOVE flipbooks of the player's swings or pitches. THANK YOU!

I agree with the first three of your premises. Maybe the fourth, but only because of the absolute "always". I guess dropping the hands isn't bad for everyone, but I haven't coached one of the exceptions. It consumes valuable time and power.
Before having daughters, I belonged to Big Brothers, Little Brothers. I went through the baseball program with my assigned little brother. The coaches were sensitive to the dropping-the-hands flaw and we all taught away from it. Then, when I started coaching my daughters in the early 90s, we were all told that the softball swing is fundamentally different. Always keep your shoulders level. Swing down on the ball. All kinds of things that I now disregard. Now, incoming softball coaches are not told the wrong things by the experienced experts. Sites like yours show all of us that we aren't starting over when we begin working with girls. That's my take. It's not a gender-based (or strength-based) difference or a sports-based difference. It's coaching based, but it's going away.

(Aren't I special? In a 12 day period, I allowed Sue Enquist to borrow my batting tee, I addressed a patent question in an email exchange with Bill Hillhouse, and I responded to a Chris O'Leary invitation for comment. Hope I don't injury my arm while reaching to pat my back. Life is good.)

 

[cshilt]

When I talk about a player dropping their hands I'm looking at where their hands are when they get to the launch point, which is at stride-foot heal plant. In almost all elite swings the hands are about even with the shoulders and slightly behind. Where the hands go after that is usually an adjustment to pitch location.

 

[ifubuildit]

Whats the saying?

Those who dare to teach must never fail to learn.

 

[Hitter]

As you may know, I'm a baseball guy who's still learning about the differences between baseball and softball.

One thing that I've run across a number of times is the concept of dropping the hands, and I was wondering if people could confirm whether my impressions are correct or not.

1. Dropping the hands seems to be a bigger problem in softball than baseball (but it isn't just confined to softball). I'm not sure why. I'm not sure if the difference is instructional or strength-related (or both).

2. There seem to be two different definitions of dropping the hands (or misconceptions about when it occurs). Some people talk about it happening during the load. I'd not sure that's always bad, as long as the hands get back up before the shoulders start rotating

3. The universally bad form of dropping the hands seems to be an inefficient adjustment mechanism where you adjust up and down in the strike zone more with the arms than with the body (via tilt). The telltale for that is the hands finishing low, and down around the front hip, on low pitches (when you would expect a high finish).

4. Dropping the hands isn't always bad. I have a clip of a D-1 college hitter missing a home run by a couple of vertical feet while dropping her hands. However, it may be one of those things that only really good athletes can pull off.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Chris this a great discussion question. I have been teaching for 21 years and coached boys for the first 10 years and then started working with the girls. My girls are taught exactly the way the boys were taught HOWEVER I do teach the girls differently as to how to do it because they lack balance, do not understand leverage, do not understand a weight shift or momentum. My conclusion to this is because they were primarily taught by men who did not understand how to teach them what they, the male already knew.

We have had four boys make it to the Frontier League, Dennis McRoberts was killed in a car wreck in St. Louis,T.J. Graves career ending ankle injury, Brian Bonner ACL injury during a basketball game no less and Dan Remonskey currently with a minor league contract in the White Sox's organization. My girls hit exactly like our boys!

When I started working with Crystl Busto's in 2002, we were on the same page as she was swinging just like we were teaching only she was better and our collaboration on how to teach made me re think the sequence of what and how we teach it. She among all others brought to the table of coaching, "Howard get the girls to feel this and be able to show them how to do it and explain why they do it!" Be able to get them to see it, feel it and fix it! Why was this so important? Crystl has a learning disability and is dyslexic and openly talks about it at the clinics!

Let me lay the ground work....
• Boys have historically been trained from an early age to use their body in sports activities which develop their neuromuscular systems. Girls are not exposed to this early motor
learning at a young age, putting them at a distinct disadvantage when they decide to get involved in high school sports.
• It is essential for girls to receive training early, to play competitively later.

Source: Physical Therapy Corner: Knee Injuries and the Female Athlete

"In 20 years I have never been wrong when I observe no weight shift in a female hitter, she demonstrates poor throwing techniques." Howard Carrier

Get a female into their stance with the lead elbow in a lower position like a boy. Now ask the female to raise their hands and you will usually see the elbows go up as a unit with the hands.
For the most part the girls get tagged with throwing like a girl because they do not understand how to use their legs to throw or hit. Try it yourself and soft toss three balls inside, middle and away and make a judgment as to if she uses a weight shift and or goes over her front leg. Now where are you going to make up the difference in trying to make up the momentum that the legs did not provide such as ground reaction force? How do we gain the momentum when the legs are gone and the female does not take her hand back to throw a ball properly so why now would they or anyone think they would understand separation at or during toe touch? This is exactly why we teach how to throw first and hit second. This is why we teach a weight shift in throwing so it can be related to hitting.

By having a sequence, they measure off from the plate, bend at the waist and then soften the knees, top of the hands at the top of the shoulder and no higher than the ear hole of the helmet and tap the bat where the pony tail is normally worn so we set the bat angle. Back elbow is away not all the way up as it must lower so they need to find what works for them. Slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee and the hands separate rearward slightly. We remind them when we were throwing they stepped to throw to gain momentum and the throwing arm came down and then up to gain momentum. Now the since the lead arm and back arm are attached to the bat the lead arm will limit them from taking the bat much past the back shoulder and they can relate to that. This is all done in front of of mirror, so they can see it, feel it and fix it. The views are side way and head on. This is especially important when they see the hands separate because some move the back elbow so the bat goes behind them so much they can no longer see their hands. A great visual is using a rag ball and holding it with the finger inter locked and if done correctly they will see the ball and if done incorrectly the ball can not be seen. We did this when we taught them how to throw also. The ball must stay visible or it puts too much stress on the shoulder and they through across their body.

I will separate the post so I can add more.

Thanks Howard

 

[Hitter]

Chris this is the second part to Dropping the Hands

Again most coaches can not even explain how to get balanced or how to test if the hitter is balanced so they will understand it. So I am very clear posture is not balance. Posture is what balance looks like. Would you ever say to a hitter get postured? I hope not. So what does this have to do with the hands? We already know there is a huge difference in spine alignment of male verses female and that the female MUST be tilted more forward and the male can stand more erect and be balanced. This is why when I hear a male coach barking at the female to stand taller in the box I realize they have no clue as to how she functions.

Muscle Imbalances
In general, the quadriceps of females are stronger than their hamstrings, putting the ACL at an even higher risk. In males, the hamstrings are stronger, thus protecting the ACL.( It works like a hinge on a male and a ball joint on a female knee!)
• Additionally, bio mechanical research shows that the gluteus muscles, or external rotators of the hip, fire differently in males and females. In males, the hip muscles fire a split second before landing, thus stabilizing the hips, or core. With females, the gluts' don’t fire before or after landing, so the hips rotate in, the knees buckle inward, and the ACL is stressed.

Source: David Marshal, M.D .Medical Director, Sports Medicine Program Children's Healthcare of Atlanta
• Landing Patterns
Sports typically involve some degree of running, jumping, landing, cutting, acceleration and/or deceleration. Females tend to perform these tasks with more of a straight leg than males. This straight leg landing pattern does not let the muscles of the thighs and calves absorb the shock, so the stress of landing is transferred to the ligaments of the joint, like the ACL.

Because until a female learns how to get balanced and learns how to shift their weight, they will fight the upper half of their body be disconnected to the lower half (core being engaged ) and then try to muscle the top half because that is all they have ever been taught! We teach them what leverage is by using a small block of wood and a 2 x 4 and I can lift any of them with one hand! I point to the bat and ask them what is that? A bat! No a lever and how we grip the lever will effect how much leverage we can apply when hitting the ball. We show them how to use a $7 dollar hammer so they can use their $300 dollar bat more effectively. We demonstrate and test we are stronger with our head down verses up. We show the grip on the top hand is different than the bottom hand so the bat can move in the top hand as we transition to bat lag and control the direction of the bat inside the path of the ball by rotating our hips as needed based on the location of the pitch and how far the ball is as to depth in box. We have them use each hand separately so they see the function and hand path and forearm swivel is not even thought about because it does not happen in our world! However, we then show the relationship of the hands moving rearward just like when we throw a ball as mentioned in the previous post. How we tie it together is our sequence and we start by doing the matrix drill where we are hitting a ball up the middle and we are slow to load soft to step and they can see them self in a mirror and see the lead elbow moving linear about 2 to 4 inches as the back elbow is lowering and the hips are starting to rotate and the shoulders are turning and tilting because the knob is leading the elbows. We point out when we were at toe touch where where the hands as they can see it in the mirror. The lead elbow was down not up because we do not know where the pitch will be yet and IF it were up and we had to adjust down we will probably not get in the big zone or be on the plane of the pitch. We hold a ball at the typical rise ball height and ask them to bring the bat to the ball and they notice the elbow was above the ball and the hands are below the elbow and the bat head is below the hands at an angle. Our instincts and hours of practice will create a swing DNA to hit the ball. They continue using super slow motion swings and hit the ball into a marked net so they have a target and they discover when they should swing a little harder and when to speed up and when to flow to the ball.

The entire separation of the hands is a Tia Chi move termed flowing if I recall it properly. They must time when the hands separate rearward as the stride to toe touch landing on the inside edge of the foot and still allowing the weight to shift because they landed on a flexed knee to prevent the front side from opening too soon. It was just like when we taught them how to throw that allows us to relate to their swing mechanics being similar. The rope drill then allows them to feel it in their upper body first and then we focus on the lower body and tie it together.

You may not agree however the lead elbow for me sets this sequence up and we do a very simple demo by taking our top hand, palm down and place our lead elbow on top of the hand as we would be hitting in our stance, load and stride and separate
the lead elbow rearward and then say. "where our elbow was (which is on the back of the hand under our elbow) our hand will now be!" We move the lead elbow forward as if going up a ramp gradually and never loose contact with the back of the hand where our elbow was and now our hand is where the elbow was. As we are doing this we explain the shoulders are opening and our tilt is happening and yes the lead shoulder is turning as this is happening as the linear phase is over after the 2 to 4 inch good first move is made.

How important is the grip in all of this? If the bat can not be controlled during this movement of connection them something has to go out of sequence as to bat drag, casting out, pushing verses feeling a pull, back elbow getting ahead of the hands, wrist rolling at or during contact. Grip for us is very important to hand path.

This is why after the matrix drill we do face the fire and then the hand over drill to help them see it, feel it and fix it! The next phase is the outside pitch and then inside as we feel anyone can hit the inside pitch however can yo hit the outside pitch and can you control the bat well enough to hit the ball up the middle?

My parents will tell you I am crazy when it comes to girls learning how to throw properly, balance, leverage, grip and bat control. We have 11 and 12 year girls that hit 200 foot shots.

Leon The Bull Durham with the Detroit Toledo Mudhens and I are friends and I will take one of my girls down to his place where he works out when I know he has some cocky boys there and tell him they are having a problem and he throws over hand hard balls and they light it up and we get a chuckle to the reaction from the boys and their parents. We have hula hoops in the cage as targets and I will tell them which one to hit and it is funny when the boys comment she swings like us and I say no she swings like an athlete!

Thanks Howard

Thanks Howard

 

[SBFAMILY]

Howard covered this very well. This is probably the #1 problem I face teaching high school softball players and they wonder why none of them can hit a rise ball. Then coaches think well I will just move them up in the box to fix the problem. With softball you do have the riseball, which baseball players don't have to face. CB told me it is the hardest ptich to hit and look how good she is. So like Howard posted, you better fix the problem, because as they good older the pitchers get better.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Those who dare to teach must never fail to learn.

If I stop asking questions, and in particular dumb ones that everybody supposedly knows the answer to, you should probably check my pulse.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

When I talk about a player dropping their hands I'm looking at where their hands are when they get to the launch point, which is at stride-foot heal plant. In almost all elite swings the hands are about even with the shoulders and slightly behind.

In many good swings, the hands will drop but then come back up to the shoulder level. I think it's clearly bad when the hands drop at this point and then never rise back up again to the level of the armpits at least.

For instance, here's Musial dropping his hands.

However, the thing to notice is that, as his hands go back during his load, his hands go back up again.

Where the hands go after that is usually an adjustment to pitch location.

I would argue that, if you see too much of this, then you're seeing the bad form of dropping the hands. It may not be bad if the hands drop to the armpits during the swing, but any lower than that, except if you got fooled, is likely problematic.

 

[RichK]

Chris, I have been working with our young girls 10-12U and absorbing and applying a lot of what Howard and others (including you) on this site have been discussing lately. Our number one problem with the girls is hand drop/bat lag. Here's why I think it happens and how we've been attacking it (again, applying what I've learned here and from others like RVP-Candrea etc). If anything I say is helpful, great. If anything is off base, let me know so I can fix it. Hopefully this adds to the discussion, I don't consider myself a hitting expert just a coach : >

I've come to really believe a lot of what Howard says about girls coming to hitting with a different athletic/fan/physiology background than boys. I think all those things are important. Girls don't emulate the swings of major leaguers. They don't swing hammers or do other dynamic movements outside of the sporting world. They have body parts that work differently and are less strong than boys in general.

That said, young girls come in two basic types and both have bat drag/hand drop problems but they come to it in different ways:

1. A smaller, weaker girl will typically drag because the bat is too heavy (a lot of "Target" bats are very heavy and unbalanced), plus they'll just instinctively drop their hands/swing plane to match the plane of the pitch. Often, they'll also hinge their wrists the wrong way (I think it has something to do with strength, also not being natural "hammer swingers") and the only path they'll have to the ball given that will be long and flat (try to swing with wrist hinged the wrong way). They'll also tend not to engage hips, etc. which will make above problems worse.

2. Young and very athletic, aggressive girls will drop hands/drag bat because they a) want to kill the ball and b) don't really have an idea how to do it and c) will typically have a self-created grip (overgrip, bat in thumb web) and hand path problem. All of those things will lead them to "reach back" in stride/separate/toe touch sequence in some way to use their entire body as leverage, rather than use lead arm/wrist hinge as they'd do in a proper, short-to-the-ball swing. It's hard to break these girls of this habit, because they see great results with slow pitching and their mentality is to be aggressive and "go for it".

That said, we've been working with the girls using a lot of what Howard has been teaching and leveraging other ideas from you and others as well to combat this.

We start with the grip -- not back in the Web, out in the fingers, able to release wrists at bat lag to contact. We've been swinging hammers, it helps!

We talk about hips/shoulders/handsandknob as a sequence while maintaining our starting 45 degree bat angle and using THAT to generate leverage rather than a reach-back.

We spend a lot of time getting to bat lag, holding/checking and then releasing the bat hard to my hand at contact (it's fun to see how scared they are to hurt me at first, then once they get a nice release from lag to contact I have to start watching it because they get stronger and stronger and it starts to sting).

We work against nets behind back heel and hit over tees behind contact ball (though I'm still not clear if this is a good idea) to reinforce that from toe touch hand path and barrel path happens in front of them, nothing happens behind them and if they drop they'll have some negative feedback in terms of touching the net or hitting the back tee.