Drills: Dropping Hands

[Wellphyt]

So you have a 10U player, just telling her works? Most parents can't follow some of these posts let alone a young kid.

Telling her what works?

Did you read what I wrote? IMO, many kids are born with some of the natural movements seen in a good swing. Kids that are born with a natural hip cock, often times have a natural hand cock. Many of us coaches in our brilliance, mess up the kid's sequence by removing the hand cock. I don't know any instructors or coaches who understand the role the hand cock plays in the sequence. I don't recall anyone even discussing the subject on the various message boards until I started raising the issue last year.

Last year while studying the Hodge overhand throw material that I own; it suddenly clicked what the hand cock in hitting really was. I then began experimenting with the overhand throw hand break in various hitting handset styles used by hitters. This experimentation, further helped me understand what hitters with very different styles did with their hands when they cocked the hips.

With this new found knowledge, I don't mess up a 10yo's sequence like a lot of closed minded coaches and instructors do. If I'm working with a 10yo that has a natural hip cock, and they drop their hands during their hip cock, I tell them not to let anyone coach that out of them. I'm not going to get them doing tee drills or Matrix drills in an attempt to prevent them from dropping their hands.

If a 10yo old doesn't have a natural hip or hand cock, then IMO a good place to start is teaching them how to throw overhand correctly.

 

[SBFAMILY]

I did and I agree with throwing. But no kid can understand some of the stuff that we post. I like the KISS approach. We muddle up the water to look and sound smart. I have been told this after a lesson, and they have no idea what we said. Just asking how you handle this. FSS I like results, if someone teaches something, and they can post my team now has a team BA or such and such, then we should pay attention. Words are cheap, results are not . I understood what Wellphyt posted and read all those baseball sites you spend your time on, so I don't need your lecture. The discussion he is talking about http://baseballdebate.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=public&thread=1489&page=2#47158 I was asking him how he gets his point across. He has a good point, but when you work with many different students at these younger ages, how you get them to understand is just as important as your knowledge of what you are teaching.

 

[softballphreak]

Telling her what works?

Did you read what I wrote? IMO, many kids are born with some of the natural movements seen in a good swing. Kids that are born with a natural hip cock, often times have a natural hand cock. Many of us coaches in our brilliance, mess up the kid's sequence by removing the hand cock. I don't know any instructors or coaches who understand the role the hand cock plays in the sequence. I don't recall anyone even discussing the subject on the various message boards until I started raising the issue last year.

Last year while studying the Hodge overhand throw material that I own; it suddenly clicked what the hand cock in hitting really was. I then began experimenting with the overhand throw hand break in various hitting handset styles used by hitters. This experimentation, further helped me understand what hitters with very different styles did with their hands when they cocked the hips.

With this new found knowledge, I don't mess up a 10yo's sequence like a lot of closed minded coaches and instructors do. If I'm working with a 10yo that has a natural hip cock, and they drop their hands during their hip cock, I tell them not to let anyone coach that out of them. I'm not going to get them doing tee drills or Matrix drills in an attempt to prevent them from dropping their hands.

If a 10yo old doesn't have a natural hip or hand cock, then IMO a good place to start is teaching them how to throw overhand correctly.

I may have asked this question before. What if they don't have either a good throw or a good bat? Could you just as well teach the bat first, then the throw; or maybe together?

I was working with a freshman today that can't throw or bat. She is catching on fairly quickly to the bat mechanics. Didn't have time to get into her throwing today; other than observing that she can't throw the ball from 3rd to 1st. But she responded well to the batting mechanics; such as they were, of course.

 

[softballphreak]

I believe most would agree that the discussions in this section are aimed at coaches and other instructors. We have to be able to understand the process as in depth as possible. Without that knowledge it will be difficult to teach, IMO.

I'm sure most can tell a few stories of totally unexpected behaviors from kids when trying to teach. Even as long as I have been coaching I see weird responses quite frequently. Without the technical knowledge sometimes I would have no idea what the kid is thinking or what caused them to do what they did.

 

[KevinC]

Here's a Ken Krause blog post with a drill for this: Life in the Fastpitch Lane

 

[whatsup]

Agreed about not trying to arbitrarily remove a "hitch". The girl in question though tends to immediately drop her hands to a few inches above her waist and swings from there. Unfortunately, she's been swinging that way for several years. I hoped having the high tee in back would give her enough tactile feedback to encourage a quick change. Didn't work out that way and she was obviously struggling to adjust.

Will try some slo-mo swings and see if that helps.

Thanks!

 

[Wellphyt]

My first post in this thread was about not coaching good movements out of kids. I feel like that meets the KISS standard. If a kid drops their hands when they cock their hips, I leave that movement alone. I will look at how low the hands drop, and will caution against dropping them down too low if warranted. However I will not try and eliminate the dropping of the hands during the hip cock, because IMO it is part of a good sequence.

As far as batting averages and results, the three kids on our HS team that I have worked with, including my DD, were considered by the HS coaches to be solid hitters. My DD started off the season batting in the 6 or 7 spot. Three quarters of the way into the season she was batting lead-off, which is a joke because she doesn't run that fast. She is not even close to having enough speed to be a lead-off batter. Apparently the coaches went through the book and figured out that she had the highest on base percentage and was getting on base more than our slappers. This is JV ball not Varsity. Our Varsity slapper is crazy good and has already committed to a D1 college as a junior.

Regarding comments about parents and players not understanding what some of us are talking about, I'm becoming more convinced everyday that the players at least, need to understand the science behind hitting. Williams understood it. Cochran and Yee understand it. Here is an excerpt from an article where Chipper Jones is talking about working with Jason Heyward during the off season to fix his swing.

"As Jones explains it, Heyward is regaining proper use of one of the “hinges” in his swing.

“When I say a hinge,” Jones said, “your wrists are a hinge, your shoulders are a hinge, your waist is a hinge, you knees are a hinge. You neck is a hinge. He lost this [wrist] hinge [Jones demonstrates with a bat].

“At the beginning of 2010 he had a nice rhythm [Jones pumps the bat a few inches forward and backward with his wrists, the bat pointed upward, held a few inches from his left shoulder]. And when he got his [front] foot down he got separation and he cocked the bat.

“When he got hurt, he started laying the bat open like this [Jones points the back backward at a 45-degree angle], and when he got his foot down he just left [the bat] there. It was almost like he was throwing a punch – boom, like that [demonstrates with a short-armed jab] instead of drawing back. He wasn’t loading this particular hinge [wrists], which caused the bat to sweep through the zone, which causes a one-plane swing that’s not very versatile. And consequently you’re seeing the ball not jump off the bat the way it used to.

“Now he doesn’t quite have this hinge back, but he’s not laying it open like this. He’s at least square; we’ve made that adjustment. He’s hitting against a stiff front side and staying behind balls, which is annother thing he was doing wrong. He was out on the front foot, coming around [with the bat] and getting beat inside, making 90-mph pitches [seem] 94-95 and blowing his thumbs up, which was another injury problem that he’s had.

“So we’re getting there. He’s 90 percent back. When he gets this hinge [wrists] right here, where he gets a little takeway — a little separation, we call it, between step and hands — he’ll be all the way back.”"

 

[DenaTyson-Slye]

A cue that my father always told me when I was a little girl was: "if your lead elbow goes up your hands will drop". There is was always an emphasis on my lead hand because that's the hand that directs you the ball.

I say when they get older the knob pointing up is a huge cue also but with beginner hitters make it a point to teach them you hit with your hands "the bat does nothing without your hand control"
* but don't go back and say Dena Tyson said you only hit with your hands (your hands position your bat so that you have your barrell in the right place

Drills I like is high tee because if you have great hand control you will keep your hands up and drive a great back spin line drive out the park (kills me to say this but that Moultrie swing is awesome! Lol)

* it's the ball up thats easiest to hit out the park but so many of us have the swing fault of dipping or dropping our hands so we pop that pitch up!

Hope this helps

Dena Tyson

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

A cue that my father always told me when I was a little girl was: "if your lead elbow goes up your hands will drop". There is was always an emphasis on my lead hand because that's the hand that directs you the ball.

I say when they get older the knob pointing up is a huge cue also but with beginner hitters make it a point to teach them you hit with your hands "the bat does nothing without your hand control"
* but don't go back and say Dena Tyson said you only hit with your hands (your hands position your bat so that you have your barrell in the right place

Drills I like is high tee because if you have great hand control you will keep your hands up and drive a great back spin line drive out the park (kills me to say this but that Moultrie swing is awesome! Lol)

* it's the ball up thats easiest to hit out the park but so many of us have the swing fault of dipping or dropping our hands so we pop that pitch up!

Hope this helps

Dena Tyson

Thank you Dena!

A big yes to 'control with the hands' ... and a big yes to the 'high tee drill'.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is Finch illustrating a hand cock/hitch. Her hitch is timed with her hip cock. Notice how her hands come back up to shoulder height prior to swing launch. Same pattern with Moultrie. Both these hitters are demonstrating a natural rhythm...a natural pattern that keeps their upper and lower body in sync and naturally puts their hands in a strong position to launch their swings from. This is the same pattern that I use when I hit. Nobody taught it to me. I was born with it.

Why don't Finch's or Moultrie's hands stay down when they drop them during their hip cock? Why do they raise them back up?

Because it's part of the pattern. The pattern is the key. Once the kids figure out the correct pattern, they won't drop their hands at swing initiation.

When you break your hands to throw overhand, your hands initially break down then they go up to about shoulder height. Finch and Moultrie are using the same underlying pattern to hit. The initial downward movement during the hand break in the overhand throw is the hitch in hitting. You can use virtual any type of handset and the hands will always end up at the back shoulder at swing initiation, because that's how the pattern works.

Try it at home. Grab a ball and hold it in your glove. Break your hands from various starting positions. High above your head...low at your belly button...at your back ear. Does your throwing hand always end up back and at about shoulder height to throw the ball? Mine does.