Draw back vs no draw

[Hillhouse]

We preach here if you copy what the best do you will more times than not be OK. This is probably the only thing I can think of that Bill teaches that does not follow this axiom (for women). Hopefully this doesn't devolve into a different direction but I am only observing what I see. Bill has more knowledge about pitching in his pinky finger than I will ever hope to amass so I'll just take him at his word with his very first statement in the post "the backswing is not an absolute". Now if you mean the best in the world you would be talking about men and a lot of men don't have a back swing I do have my own philosophy on why but again I don't want the thread to go sideways. Sufficed it do say most elite women do have a backswing and it works just fine. So I would go with what makes her most comfortable although truth be told she is 10 so you could mold her whatever direction you wanted...to each his own. Bottom line this isn't an absolute.

Correct. Not an absolute. Just as keeping the hands together is not an absolute either. It's a choice.

I'm telling you with every game video'd now, analytics, saber metrics being put in place by colleges now, the success pitchers are having in 2020 will not be as successful in 2025. Hitting has caught up with both equipment and great training. And that side of the game (offense) is going to continue to get better and better. The new pitching rule will help pitchers with velocity but it's not as though they are learning a new pitch that is going to be revolutionary. The ball has to cross the plate no matter how it's delivered and the opposition is more primed than every before to hit it. I know I spent time last year helping our hitters identify and pick pitchers, so does Mike White, so does Pete Meredith (BYU), Kyle Jamieson (Clemson), Mike Larabee (Maryland), Wally King (Furman), Jeremy Manly (Ball State), Josh Johnson (Miss St), Ray Camacho (Arizona), Travis Wilson (Florida State), Mike Roberts (Louisiana), Jody Hennigar (Buffalo), etc etc. etc. I could go on and on. And the easiest pitchers to pick were the ones who swing back. When I'd throw BP, the girls were simply baffled at first of their inability to pick up the ball outta my hand. No, not cause I was trying to throw 80mph with rise, drop, etc. But because they couldn't see the ball prior to release. Of all things, they all said that was the toughest part.

djcarter is right though, copying the best in the world is a pretty safe way of going. But more runs are being scored now than ever before, think about that. The game is changing.

Bill

 

[lhowser]

Folks, the backswing is not an absolute. Pitchers can do it or not do it. Personally, I see 3 (potentially 4) bad things happen when pitchers do it:

1. they lock the elbow. And 90% who lock, never unlock it. Especially if the've been trained with the "wrist flip" mentality as part of their warm up, which is nothing more than bad muscle memory of pitching with a straight arm.

2. They show everyone the ball, and the grip on the ball. Does that matter at 12U? No. 14U? Not really. 16U? It's starting to. Why show anyone the ball and your grip prematurely?

3. The most important reason: again 90% of the girls who backswing stop their glove hand at their belt and only swing the ball hand backwards... meaning only the ball hand shoots forward during the delivery. The glove hand does very very little to help the forward momentum. This is 1/2 of your body power doing nothing to help the pitch!!! Would you teach her to jump for a rebound or a jump ball in basketball with only one arm for momentum???? Probably not. So why only one arm when pitching? REAL power in pitching comes from your legs, not your arm. Both arms shooting forward provides a stronger push than a single arm does.

4. Not every pitcher does this but the glove swim. In the majority of cases when a pitcher has a massive swim of the glove hand, take a look at how early the hands are separated (usually during a backswing). Once the hands separate the glove is free to go crazy. If the hands stay together, not only are you preventing elbow lock, hiding the ball, giving yourselves both sides to push forward but you're also going to eliminate the glove's ability to go swimming (for the most part).

No, it's not an absolute to keep the hands together. I believe there are more LONG TERM benefits to it vs. the back arm swing. But sometimes we don't see the long game, only the instant gratification And if you spend your 12U-14U days doing a big backswing, then suddenly realize the hitters see the ball better, see your grips for pitches better, and think you need to change guess what?? It will feel like she's pitching with the opposite hand to change the delivery. It's THAT different!!!

Yes, there are a lot of good pitchers who do a back arm swing. But I'm telling you that the hitting is catching up. Bats and balls are not the same as when Finch or Scarborough was in college. Combine better than ever hitting training, bats and balls of 2020, and more and more guys like me teaching hitters who to "pick pitchers" and learning how to hit (not just swing a bat).... the game is changing.

Bill

That was really good. I was going to say pitchers succeed both ways (and they do) but those were really good arguments!

 

[djcarter1966]

It is true that recognizing pitches is definately something that will make hitters even more dangerous. Plus now with video and lots more coverage teams can do a lot more scouting without leaving the office. You can look at the pitchers you will be facing and spend time looking for tells and different cues and prepare your team before you hit the field and you don't need to go through the line up a couple times before you figure things out.