Does pitching style matter????
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Why complicate things by putting another thought into the head of a pitcher? It isn't necessary to think about closing the hips. I have never had a girl hit herself in the hip with the ball but I have seen girls who in closing create interference between the right side and the arm. Telling a pitcher that she needs to close her hip often leads to forcing the whole right side into the pitch sometimes causing the arm to straighten and lose it's natural bend. Also, you need space for the arm to flow through at release, particularly when throwing a spin pitch like the rise or the curve.
Armwhip
This is probably where you and I would disagree. I want my pitchers to close their hips if for no other reason than it puts them into a defensive position to better protect themselves from the line drive back through the middle. You leave those hips open too long and there is no way you can stop a ball coming back at you.
Saved my daughter a lot of pain pitching this way.
Elliott.
This is probably where you and I would disagree. I want my pitchers to close their hips if for no other reason than it puts them into a defensive position to better protect themselves from the line drive back through the middle. You leave those hips open too long and there is no way you can stop a ball coming back at you.
Saved my daughter a lot of pain pitching this way.
Elliott.
Certainly the defensive position thing is an issue that I have wrestled with. I now have almost 100 pitchers in my video collection, I added Taryn Mowatt this weekend at the NCAA regional, and none of them seem to worry about defensive position outside of getting the glove up. I don't see anything positive that closing the hip adds to the motion but I do see some negative things. As far as defensive position goes I am open to suggestions, I don't see any pitchers making an effort to square up after release, which is certainly something that I did. I have been advised on other forums not to let defensive positioning interfere with the pitching motion.
To really understand if hips are involved in pitching speed,control and consistency just try to pitch or hit without use it.Why pitchers and hitters underhand or overhand open their hips before push with pivot and close it following their pushing motion ?Is that simple...Why in modified fastpitch softball you have to stay square to the catcher to pitch legal?Hip is the key in throw hard especially if you throw using "across-the-body" mechanics as Bill Hillhouse teach in his dvd.
Actually Bill Hillhouse says you don't close the hips.
I am watching DJ Mathis of Oklahoma right now on TV, and she never does close her hips. They get to that 45 - 52 degrees and stay there even after delivery.
I think some of us do see different clips differently. I don't see any pitchers who really use the hips to try to add speed or do anything conscious. What I see is again what you would call a no-teach. They drive out hard, open their hips so the arm circle can stay on-line in the direction they want it to go. After push-off the back leg drives up, and the hips do what they do.
Try it. Stand in front of a mirror, get into an open position, take your arm around slowly in a circle. Take a step forward. As the arm comes down the back side of the circle, slide your back foot forward. Don't intentionally do anything else. Watch what your back hip does. It will appear to close, but it's nothing you're trying to do. It just happens. It's a no-teach.
Just saw a series of Angela Tincher (sp?) pitches too. She doesn't close her hips as a conscious effort either. They're still partially open long after the pitch is blowing by the hitter.
Sorry I don't have video to post. One of the problems with using a cable DVR instead of an old fashioned VCR. Unless someone knows how to pull the video off of it.
As for Ueno, watch closely. Her hip closure is a follow-through, after she's already released the ball. Once the ball is out of her hand, what difference does it make?
Pitching style is not pitching mechanics
When you ask the question about closing the hip or leaving yourself open on the release, this is not a style question, but a question of correct mechanics.
Style would be restricted to the various premotions seen on todays pitchers, but once they drive off the mound, mechanics and the absolutes of the motion take over. I agree with Big Daddy that the correct finish is to snap the wrist, follow through with the arm and follow the snap with the closing of the throwing side hip. This combined with a weight back delivery is necessary to get the most power on pitches like the fast ball and screw ball.
A more open delivery, leaving the throwing hip open with the weight back would be used for the rise ball.
When you ask the question about closing the hip or leaving yourself open on the release, this is not a style question, but a question of correct mechanics.
Style would be restricted to the various premotions seen on todays pitchers, but once they drive off the mound, mechanics and the absolutes of the motion take over. I agree with Big Daddy that the correct finish is to snap the wrist, follow through with the arm and follow the snap with the closing of the throwing side hip. This combined with a weight back delivery is necessary to get the most power on pitches like the fast ball and screw ball.
A more open delivery, leaving the throwing hip open with the weight back would be used for the rise ball.
Slight correction
Bill and I have been e-mailing back and forth on a couple of things and he asked me to make a small correction. Who am I to argue with Bill Hillhouse?
What he says about the hips is that they close after release. They are part of the follow-through, not the release. At release they should remain open and out of the way.
Check out this clip at his Web site. It's of him doing a pitching demonstration in Erie, PA. You will see that he doesn't "load" his hip or force it through as part of his release. He is still open when the ball comes out of his hand and for a couple of frames afterward. Any movement of his hips is driven by his shoulders closing.
There. That should settle it.
Bill and I have been e-mailing back and forth on a couple of things and he asked me to make a small correction. Who am I to argue with Bill Hillhouse?
What he says about the hips is that they close after release. They are part of the follow-through, not the release. At release they should remain open and out of the way.
Check out this clip at his Web site. It's of him doing a pitching demonstration in Erie, PA. You will see that he doesn't "load" his hip or force it through as part of his release. He is still open when the ball comes out of his hand and for a couple of frames afterward. Any movement of his hips is driven by his shoulders closing.
There. That should settle it.
Hello Ken,
I think this may be a matter of interpretation. When Bill says his hips do not close until after release, I would agree IF we are talking about fully closed and facing the batter. But Bill hips, as well as Ueno and Cat's, all lead the way as the pitching hand comes toward release. The difference is the hips lead but only close to around 45 degrees, as you pointed out previsously.
I would fully agree with Mark's opinion on this...
Interesting topic.
Mike
I think this may be a matter of interpretation. When Bill says his hips do not close until after release, I would agree IF we are talking about fully closed and facing the batter. But Bill hips, as well as Ueno and Cat's, all lead the way as the pitching hand comes toward release. The difference is the hips lead but only close to around 45 degrees, as you pointed out previsously.
I would fully agree with Mark's opinion on this...
Interesting topic.
Mike
halskinner
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Pitching styles and variations
There are actually only two 'styles' of pitching; step style and leap & drag.
There are, however, several variations of both of those.
Not closing the hips (ie; staying open) is a variation that can be used with either style. This is a variation that is taught by the likes of John Gay and Bill Hillhouse.
If you throw a cut riseball and release near the back hip, staying open is beneficial as it allows for more rotation of the wrist and ball spin.
If you throw the bent fingered rise, it is more beneficial to close to 45 degrees or less and release at the front hip or even a little out in front of that. Releasing farther in front allows more rotation of the wrist and even some rotation at the elbow. Leaning slightly to the throwing side at release will allow even more rotation and more ball spin/movement. (It can also turn a riseball into a REALLY nasty up and in.)
Do they both look completely different? Yup.
Are they both riseballs? YUP.
Can a pitcher be taught to throw both of those? Yup.
Will coaches of limited knowledge consider these as just 'one' pitch because they are both riseballs? Most of the time, Yup.
There is only one person on the field who has an opinion that matters as to whether the pitcher has one or two pitches in this case, and that person is; THE BATTER!
There are actually only two 'styles' of pitching; step style and leap & drag.
There are, however, several variations of both of those.
Not closing the hips (ie; staying open) is a variation that can be used with either style. This is a variation that is taught by the likes of John Gay and Bill Hillhouse.
If you throw a cut riseball and release near the back hip, staying open is beneficial as it allows for more rotation of the wrist and ball spin.
If you throw the bent fingered rise, it is more beneficial to close to 45 degrees or less and release at the front hip or even a little out in front of that. Releasing farther in front allows more rotation of the wrist and even some rotation at the elbow. Leaning slightly to the throwing side at release will allow even more rotation and more ball spin/movement. (It can also turn a riseball into a REALLY nasty up and in.)
Do they both look completely different? Yup.
Are they both riseballs? YUP.
Can a pitcher be taught to throw both of those? Yup.
Will coaches of limited knowledge consider these as just 'one' pitch because they are both riseballs? Most of the time, Yup.
There is only one person on the field who has an opinion that matters as to whether the pitcher has one or two pitches in this case, and that person is; THE BATTER!
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