Dilemma with coach teaching HE (OP update)

[Towny9]

Sure.

But the reason why softball pitchers can safely throw 500-600 or more pitches a weekend and baseball pitchers are limited to ~100 is because windmill throwing aligns with our natural shoulder rotation and elbow hinge, whereas overhand throwing is a more force-filled, explosive action.

It’s kinda like jogging vs sprinting.

We can do both, but we can sustain jogging for a much longer period of time and without injury. (Because we have springy tendons and ligaments in our legs (which apes lack ), narrow waists (), a great sense of balance, large glutes, and the ability to store 20 miles worth of glycogen in our muscles.)

I would tend to agree with you, but I would add that the only UN-natural thing about overhand throwing is the mound. If you took the mound away, which adds a lot more stress to the equation, you would see overhand throwing a little more in line with underhand in terms of stress.

 

[Ken B]

Baseball and softball pitching is a very difficult comparison. Baseball pitchers are trying to use every inch of their body to coil and uncoil. The softball pitcher is striding into FSR—firming up and trying to stop every inch of their body to whip against.

The elbow of a baseball pitcher stays pretty much level with the shoulders. The softball pitcher’s humerus is powered by an arm circle (or is that the other way around!)

There are more differences, and also similarities. It’s kinda apple’s-to-oranges and although fun to compare and contrast, I’m not sure it’s helpful.

Sorry for the drive by posts... I’m off tomorrow and will hopefully have time to share thoughts on how brush maximizes whip and release trigger.

 

[ArmWhip]

Accurately throwing overhand Is in our genetics and it’s instinctual.. It’s a very natural motion that humans have used for thousands and thousands (or maybe millions depending on your beliefs) of years since we started throwing rocks at rabbits hunting for our food. Overhand throwers are accurate for the same reason that basketball players can shoot a basketball and as soon as it leaves their hand they “know” that it’s in. Most of us call it “feel”.

But softball pitchers need brush interference to help them "know" or "feel' how to throw a strike.

 

[STRIKE3]

My thing is I always understood(since I watched my first hillhouse youtubes) underhand throwing as the same as overhand. And we have all these phenomenal overhand thowers being very precise and accurate.

I just think the things to focus on may be arm circle, stride, posture consistency vs brush. Brush may just be a by product.

On the other hand, striving for brush may improve the things that are cxtually important(drive, FSR, arm circle).

I dont know. I just tend to be a skeptic.

Thanks @Bonesaw and I now understand what your point is and I believe it is a fair and good one. I can say many years ago I wasn't real sure if brush was that important or not, if it was a byproduct of good mechanics, if it was taught, etc. etc. I can't say I finally have the answer but I will share my thoughts for what they are worth or not worth.

1. The best in the world have them.
2. Yukiko has a video where brush is discussed.
3. go back to #1..... Monica Abbott is crazy good brush and so many of the best do.
4. There absolutely are very good pitchers that don't have it like Carda and Barnhill. Both really really good. However we all know that replanting is common in both of them and I could give you several more examples. I won't go into what I believe the link between no brush and replanting in this thread but I believe there is a common link.

All that said, my guess is you might agree with 1-4 or at least a couple of them. But I still haven't stated my thoughts on is brush taught or a by product. IMO it will likely need to be taught more than not. Again, this is my opinion. Below is why I believe this:

1. Yes, I do believe there are girls out there that brush and have no idea that they do it, never been taught it, etc. They simply have been taught great mechanics (posture, whip, etc. etc) so it is a by product for them.

2. That said, I have seen time and time and time again where a girl learning to pitch does everything she can to MISS the hip. The last thing she wants to do is have her forearm hit it so she stays away. I think this is the natural reaction for most girls. I say MOST and not ALL but that is just what I have seen.

2B. So, in that case which has been most cases for me a pitcher should be taught how to brush, why brush is okay, how to do it without hurting herself etc. etc. Many ways to do this like wrap and roll while pitching from the pocket, etc. etc. etc. I have found if I teach a wrap and roll, pitch from the pocket, or whatever it may be for that particular girl, they pick it up so much faster, start to do it, and excel at a faster rate than if I didn't focus or "try to make it happen".

3. I think I could likely take the same pitchers in 2B and not focus on brush at all and just focus on the other mechanics and they would eventually or potentially get there. But I think it would take alot longer to let it "happen on its own".

So I introduce it early and make it happen so they know it is okay, not afraid of it, and everything else seems to improve so much better/faster when at that point.

Hope that makes sense. Just what has worked for me and why I have done it. Again, really good point/question as it falls IMO into the GREY/GRAY area as to if it is a byproduct or if it is taught.

S3

 

[knuckleballer]

DD just joined our town's 12u travel "B" team. She decided she wants to give pitching a try, so through this forum I discovered IR, and am thoroughly convinced it is the best approach to release and follow through. I've been working with her on it in our basement and I think we've made some headway. The problem is that the assistant coach (dad of the head coach) is telling her to "answer the phone" which is just a variant of HE. After telling her she was doing it wrong a couple of times today, she meekly told him that it's how her dad told her to do it. He said that's only for curves, and afterwards she started doing it his way. I and my two daughters are new to this organization and fairly new to softball, so I'm not sure how to handle this without sounding like a know-it-all or malcontent. I also don't want to put DD in a situation that's unfair to her. Should she just work on her catching during the pitchers and catchers session and just work on pitching with me?

(I think I've seen a thread discussing this but I couldn't find it in the search.)

Back to your original dilemma...

We had a similar situation on our team. We had an AC who was the only private PC in the area and he was an old-school HE guy. At the time I didn't understand the first thing about fastpitch mechanics but to me his instruction didn't make sense.

Our pitchers were as good as you could expect using HE mechanics which means they topped out at 58-59mph. A couple strong pitchers were able to hit 61 mph on a good day. When we played in SoCal and Colorado I was blown away when I saw the same age players hitting 63-65 mph. Then I was totally blown away when I saw, in person, a 5'4" fire plug of a pitcher throwing 70mph with no follow-though above her waist. All the pitchers I saw throwing gas had a similar style and no pitchers who took lessons from our AC had that style.

The IR is the way to go. Others have posted great suggestions how to approach your situation. My suggestion: Stick to your guns and make sure your daughter learns IR, whether it's you teaching what you learn online, or from a competent IR PC if you can find one. Good luck!