Cues after toe touch

[FiveFrameSwing]

I've promoted that move using the phrase "Switch and swing." The result, though, is not what I think it should be. As I see it, that move results in a premature and artificial unweighting of the back foot. The difference is subtle, but (to me at least) the model swing videos make it clear there's a sequence: 1) front heel plants, 2) hips continue rotating, 3) back heel lifts. The girls response to "switch and swing" is to plant the front heel and lift the rear heel simultaneously and the resulting hip action isn't right.

Not sure I can describe it adequately.

Bold above ...... someone has been doing their homework. There is wisdom there for those that care to explore closely.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think I understand. I have the same issue. I want them to thrust the hip toward the pitch with enough momentum it pulls the rear foot weightless. I believe what the rear foot does should be a non-teach, it just happens as a result of the hip movement.

I've tried the rear foot on a beam drill. That doesn't do what I want. The latest thing I've tried is where they actually lift the rear foot by bending the rear knee at contact—just for the feel. Too early to tell.

Too much momentum and you bypass the SnF and the hands are no longer in control. Not enough momentum and SnF isn't your power source. Ted Williams placed the lower body effort level between 80 to 85% effort ... and IMO that about works out to be correct.

 

[RayR]

We have them work on getting the front foot down early as a way to learn how to walk off the back heel on time....meaning no toe touch - get the front heel down - this action turns the hips open....

From this position (weight 60/40 on the front foot) they can simply unload the swing from the back.

The rear knee is a hinge joint and must bend to walk off the back heel and turn the hips - watch for the knee not bending and the back leg just pushing and hips sliding forwards.

Turning in the back foot (pigeon toed) helps them learn to bend the knee as they walk off...

Focusing on hip rotation will usually create a spin because they will rotate the front hip back....there needs to be direction to the hip rotation and walking off the back heel provides direction....

I would rather model players more like Williams

Then Flores - as I think Flores is just a strong, strong player -

 

[Wellphyt]

I've promoted that move using the phrase "Switch and swing." The result, though, is not what I think it should be. As I see it, that move results in a premature and artificial unweighting of the back foot. The difference is subtle, but (to me at least) the model swing videos make it clear there's a sequence: 1) front heel plants, 2) hips continue rotating, 3) back heel lifts. The girls response to "switch and swing" is to plant the front heel and lift the rear heel simultaneously and the resulting hip action isn't right.

Not sure I can describe it adequately.

Welcome to the club. I wasted five years trying to get my daughter to weight shift doing the "Elvis". What I've since learned is that the "Elvis" move that is often seen in good swings is caused by actions upstream. Teach the upstream actions and the "Elvis" happens naturally. However if you teach the "Elvis" and don't teach the correct upstream movements that actually lead to the "Elvis", then you will very likely wind up with a player that has the "Elvis" look, without the accompanying weight shift.

 

[jbooth]

I think I understand. I have the same issue. I want them to thrust the hip toward the pitch with enough momentum it pulls the rear foot weightless. I believe what the rear foot does should be a non-teach, it just happens as a result of the hip movement.

I've tried the rear foot on a beam drill. That doesn't do what I want. The latest thing I've tried is where they actually lift the rear foot by bending the rear knee at contact—just for the feel. Too early to tell.

Just keep the back knee bent, and the heel DOWN, and push from the butt. The heel will pop up by itself. You don't turn the knee in, you push it down. The leg naturally turns in and the heel lifts to take the pressure off of the knee.

The front heel gets pushed down, in a sense, from the backside push. The force needs to come from the rear butt cheek. The feet don't supply any power.

The girl above is doing the same thing as the pro in the sequence I showed. She pushes the heel down from the backside push that starts hip rotation.

 

[jbooth]

Not sure this is the best example, but it illustrates what I mean:

It's:
1) Step to your toe
2) plant
3) turn
4) unweight

It's not "switch". And, using those words with the girls have resulted in nothing but blank stares....

It's;

1) Push to toe
2) Push heel down
3) Rotation and unweighting, happens

 

[Wellphyt]

Thanks! A lot of good information here.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of what is supposed to happen next. But, I'm not conveying that information to the 10U and 12U girls I work with as successfully/efficiently as I'd like. What I'm finding is that many girls tend to either spin their back leg or they peform a pseudo dance maneuver where they "switch" feet (put the front heel down and just lift the back one up).

Seems to me that the straightening of the front leg and the lifting of the rear heel are both driven by the rotation of the hips and the resulting weight shift. Using cues like "get your hips around" or "lead with your hips" doesn't seem to resonate with the girls or produce the results I'm looking for. So, I'm looking for some alternative cues or drills to try.

The part in bold is a lesson for the ages. I start off every student I work with by asking them what they have been taught about hitting. They all say something along the lines of "getting the hips around". The girl I started working with last week said she has been told to "get her hips through".

IMO the best alternative cue you can use is "turn your hips back" or "wind your hips up". I don't talk in terms of turning the hips forward. The unwinding of the hips is a natural function of the hips being wound. My focus is on the backward turn of the hips and the transition. The transition defined as how best to utilize ground reaction forces when the hips reverse. If the kids turn their hips back and then transition correctly, the forward turn of the hips has to happen. It's physically impossible to turn you hips back and then swing without turning the hips forward. My recommendation is to stop talking about turning the hips forward and start talking about turning the hips back and how to use the ground when the hips reverse.

I use cues like "wind - unwind" and "move - counter move".

 

[Bouldersdad]

One of the hardest things for an instructor to do is find the correct phrase or key word for the movement you are working on. Each kid is different and has a different learning curve. Some key words work for some and not for others. But by experience you learn to keep different phrases in your mental tickle file to use to get a certain person to understand a certain movement.

Its strange that this particular post should prevent its self at this time. Last night I was working with a new student on the movements after toe touch. All of the key words I used to fire the hips and elbows seemed to get lost in translation to her. What she understood and used was a phrase called start the engine.

I asked her if dad had a lawn mower, and did she ever pull the cord to start it. after replying yes I said imagine that the front elbow has the cord attached to it the other end of the cord is attached to the rear knee. when the cord (elbow ) is pulled the engine ( rear leg,hip ) will start. After looking at me like I had a third eye she tried it. And low and behold it was what she needed.

Now I know that there is the chicken and egg argument of which fires first the elbow or knee and i am not getting into that. In my opinion they fire so close together for all practile purposes its a silly argument.

I was just glad that there was something that she could mentally wrap her mind around to make the movement work


Tim

 

[jbooth]

One of the hardest things for an instructor to do is find the correct phrase or key word for the movement you are working on. Each kid is different and has a different learning curve. Some key words work for some and not for others. But by experience you learn to keep different phrases in your mental tickle file to use to get a certain person to understand a certain movement.

That is absolutely, positively, 100% true.

I had a 9yo once that couldn't get his head centered over a bent back knee.

I kept saying, "Get your head over your knee." And, he just couldn't do it right. After showing him several things, I accidentally said, "Get your knee under your head." And, that phrase clicked and he did it right.

His Dad and I looked at each other like "What the heck? What's the difference?" Whatever, the kid got it right.

I often have to use 5 or 10 different phrases, before one clicks, and as you said, what works for one doesn't work for another.

 

[RayR]

Excellent posts - multiple phrases and ways to say the same thing....finding a way to communicate with your players or students....

Of course, there are always the stories of a player coming to me and saying the same thing the Dad has been saying - but from me it it's right and from the Dad it's wrong....lol