Critique / Help Series of Swings

[HYP]

At what point did it become OK for this site become the public face of Hitting Illustrated?

P.S. Notice how TM's taken his site private so you can't see the coaching that's going on any more.

CO on cue. Just like always.

 

[Steve Huff]

I agree with allot of what you said in this post. Many believe you just need to turn the barrel, there is no box.

How does bond get into this position in the swing.
He turned his body some before he released the bat head to impact.

SL

Yep! I think I see the arm frame still there, about 90 degrees, with the bat head directly behind the hands toward catcher, barrel still connected here at the end of the Connection Phase, elbow at seam, hands directly above the elbow (which tells me the ball isn't ON the inside corner), front elbow bent not barred, front arm and shoulder angle about equal, and hands ready to finish the rotational force with a wrist snap. BANG! Maybe some of you guys can tweet Bonds and tell him to get a clue! This is what I mean guys. If civil, I am willing to listen. But you have to prove your point through discourse and debate, not "bully it" or degrade and demean the way Teacherman and Marcus do. There was a name for that behavior. It was called the "Anti-Rationalist Movement" of 1875-1895.

 

[Steve Huff]

So, the hands following rotating hips is linear?

It sounds like what you are describing is a knob pull. Force applied down the length of the bat and not perpendicular to the handle.

How does the barrel get out there? Does it just fly off the merry go round?

This is another really dumb accusation. And when I say dumb, it is because it isn't a legitimate question or lack of knowledge. It is a, "you are so stupid" statement. It is hyperbole to dismiss the protagonist. And strangely you are following Marcus and Teacherman in their methodology. The hands are not behind the back. Their movement is in the shortest possible transition to the hip and shoulder. If the shoulders were not rotating, then it would be a straight line. It appears to be an arc because of shoulder rotation and the hands following. That movement is almost a line to connection at the hip the way I teach load. My load does not put the bat behind the shoulder. It stays out in front about 6 or 7 inches. So when the shoulders rotate, the hands move to the last phase of connection at the hip. It does have a slight arc, but it is more linear than circular in relation to the shoulders. Refer to Pujols. Now if you have a lot of shoulder coil, then it appears the hands are moving in a big arc or circle. Not in relationship to the shoulders. They follow the shoulders and simply move from away in load, to connection at the hip. The shoulders turn, the hands follow. Now if I just stood there with my feet spread, and whipped the bat from one shoulder to the other with arms extended, that would be moving them in a circle. So what I am talking about is a relationship of the hands to the shoulder or connection. The hands don't move that far. Rotation of the shoulders creates most of the travel. But as you can see in the Bonds photo, the pitch isn't inside. His hands are fairly far from his shoulder. Because as I said before, pitches away change the arc of the bat because of potential earlier release. This pitch probably is middle away, but I don't think he is going to RF.

 

[Steve Huff]

Mann - the box is not a triangle - you learn that in kindergarten....

The box is shoulder driven or arm driven - it is about rotation of the shoulders first to get the barrel around. It is about keeping the front arm bent. It is about swinging out front. It is about pulling the handle.

The triangle is cue to turn the barrel rearward. An easy way to think of it is that the triangle is facing the ground on the set up and you turn it quickly so that it faces the pitcher as part of the swing...It is about swinging deep staying behind the rear leg longer. It requires a lateral tilt of the shoulders...meaning rear shoulder under front shoulder before the shoulder go into horizontal rotation....it is about turning the handle.

It isn't a box to me. But some people call it that because of the chest and arms triangle. I understand their point I guess in keeping the structure, but it is an arm frame or triangle. However, here is the fundamental difference we have. If your shoulder automatically drops, then how do you hit a rise ball or screwball? You can get away with it more in baseball, but how do you get away with it in fastpitch.
Again, two batters hitting two riseballs, with two different approaches, both with my mechanical teaching. One is successful though out, the other misses the pitch. She dropped her shoulder and bat head. The other kept level shoulders throughout! Teresa kept her shoulders level throughout. In truth she hits about .100 points higher than Lucy. If she dropped it, she would be Lucy! Teresa drops her shoulder because she needs to, tilts the triangle when she needs to.







This is why it is hard to buy into this barrel turning and shoulder drop.

 

[Steve Huff]

In all honesty, the barrel was in motion before knowledge of pitch location was determined. He stopped turning the barrel and shut down the connection being used to assist in delivering the barrel. When folks begin swinging then they can begin learning more about what is below the surface.

I actually agree with this. He has to initiate the process before the pitch arrives. If he isn't in heel plant in time during delivery, he will never catch up. And when heel plant is made what happens, any coil and hip rotation is processed. So the bat is moving, and it moving either into connection at the hip as "our" school teaches, or into launch, turning the barrel as your school teaches.

Some of us have swung a lot of bats. I played in over 1600 men's games in ASA fastpitch, and also played in leagues, but I don't count those as games and could never add them up. I think others here have also swung a bat.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Just an FYI .....

Some common cues I hear, such as "hands above the ball" and "attack from the top"... are meant to help encourage not swinging at pitches this far above the strike zone.

 

[HYP]

Yep! I think I see the arm frame still there, about 90 degrees, with the bat head directly behind the hands toward catcher, barrel still connected here at the end of the Connection Phase, elbow at seam, hands directly above the elbow (which tells me the ball isn't ON the inside corner), front elbow bent not barred, front arm and shoulder angle about equal, and hands ready to finish the rotational force with a wrist snap. BANG! Maybe some of you guys can tweet Bonds and tell him to get a clue! This is what I mean guys. If civil, I am willing to listen. But you have to prove your point through discourse and debate, not "bully it" or degrade and demean the way Teacherman and Marcus do. There was a name for that behavior. It was called the "Anti-Rationalist Movement" of 1875-1895.

You are going to have to use more then still pics to prove a point.

 

[Steve Huff]

Steve - If you weren't trying to understand, I don't believe you'd put yourself through this aggravation.

Here's another way to think about the benefit of turning the barrel that might help. Here's the set up: You have 10 tries to run a 20 yard dash 0.2 seconds faster than your current personal best to win more money than you'll ever need for the rest of your life. You can start whenever you want and the timers are photoelectronic and trip when you pass them. Here's the kicker - during a randomly selected 9 of those 10 tries a red stop light gets turned on 1 yard after the start and you MUST stop before the 6 yard mark or else you will be disqualified and MTS will get all the money.

Here's the question: How would you prefer to start?
A) Standing still or in a sprinter's crouch just behind the starting line (and trying to channel Tommie Smith circa 1968)
B) hitting the starting line running at top speed (hoping that the red light doesn't come on, but knowing that the house always comes out ahead)
C) hitting the starting line running at the fastest speed at which you know you can stop in time if the red light comes on (while thinking about what cities you'd put new NFP teams in as the new benefactor/commissioner)

IMO, answer C is the psuedo-equivalent of that initial turning of the barrel that gives a hitter the bat speed and adjustability they need to hit any pitch, without guessing.

OK, so maybe this wasn't a good analogy, but how many people said Tommie who???

No, you did fine. I can talk to you. Never had 1 second of qualm about you. Tommie Smith? I don't have a black glove, they're brown. Can I wear brown gloves doing this? I understand your point. Can you give me multiple views, which perfectly express turning the barrel, launching the barrel, that I can evaluate? From above, and from in front. Preferably not low outside pitches. I saw one, which MTS posted. It was of Posey I think. What he did I have absolutely no problem with. But it was accommodated because his hands kept the bat above his shoulder.

 

[HYP]

This is another really dumb accusation. And when I say dumb, it is because it isn't a legitimate question or lack of knowledge. It is a, "you are so stupid" statement. It is hyperbole to dismiss the protagonist. And strangely you are following Marcus and Teacherman in their methodology. The hands are not behind the back. Their movement is in the shortest possible transition to the hip and shoulder. If the shoulders were not rotating, then it would be a straight line. It appears to be an arc because of shoulder rotation and the hands following. That movement is almost a line to connection at the hip the way I teach load. My load does not put the bat behind the shoulder. It stays out in front about 6 or 7 inches. So when the shoulders rotate, the hands move to the last phase of connection at the hip. It does have a slight arc, but it is more linear than circular in relation to the shoulders. Refer to Pujols. Now if you have a lot of shoulder coil, then it appears the hands are moving in a big arc or circle. Not in relationship to the shoulders. They follow the shoulders and simply move from away in load, to connection at the hip. The shoulders turn, the hands follow. Now if I just stood there with my feet spread, and whipped the bat from one shoulder to the other with arms extended, that would be moving them in a circle. So what I am talking about is a relationship of the hands to the shoulder or connection. The hands don't move that far. Rotation of the shoulders creates most of the travel. But as you can see in the Bonds photo, the pitch isn't inside. His hands are fairly far from his shoulder. Because as I said before, pitches away change the arc of the bat because of potential earlier release. This pitch probably is middle away, but I don't think he is going to RF.

I understand what your words describe and it isn't high level.

Do you believe that the force is directed down the length of the bat? The reason I asked is because you stated that the barrel is behind the hands and the shoulder moves the hands around forward. This would indicate that the barrel is being pulled around until the shoulders start to decelerate and then it whips out late.

I do not know you or have not read anything from you until the last few days. I have seen that you mentioned that you agree with Chris O'Leary. Whom I don't think I have ever agreed with. The reason I ask questions is to see what it is you truly believe.

I did notice that you have never answered my question as to Torres' swing. Whether it was long or short and if it was what you teach.

 

[Steve Huff]

Just an FYI .....

Some common cues I hear, such as "hands above the ball" and "attack from the top"... are meant to help encourage not swinging at pitches this far above the strike zone.

Yeah, her helmet didn't fly off but she missed it badly. It looks worse in the photo than to observers, but this photo shows how bad her guess was. She ended up with the bat above her head like a propeller. Some batters are weak on high pitches. Lucy is an average hitter, but she is a slapper foremost. She started out young as a right-handed hitter. The point of this is the concept of "launching the bat and dropping the shoulder" to make the frame tilt, I believe they said. I say no! This is what can happen.