are all bullet-spins the same?

[corlay]

Been working indoors with DD throwing close-range into a hung blanket.
The focus of our recent workouts have been to gain an understanding and feel of the different articulations required to throw: drop ball, curve ball, change up.

DD is a natural "slicer" and immediately took to throwing a corkscrew curve.
Learning a good drop has been a bit of a struggle for her to get the proper spin axis.
Also, recent warm-up vid I took of her from behind throwing her change (horseshoe style) revealed that she wasn't getting her fingers outside the ball early enough.

So, as our northeastern weather starts to turn, we've decided to break things down and focus on getting her releases right.

To my question:
I've been shooting slo-mo vid of her from 3/4 front to the ball side to analyze her arm/hand/wrist/finger positions at release,
and I noticed something: she throws 2 different bullet-spins.

For her corkscrew curve, the ball is bullet-spinning so that the axis is if you took a ball taped for a 4-seam fastball in the 12:6 position, and rotation is perpendicular to or across the tape axis, rather than in-line with it like on a drop ball. (so the mid point of the stripe is the axis of rotation and is facing at you or even titled upward a little from the catcher's perspective. See sketch attached)

And when she tries to throw the Drop, the ball is sometimes bullet-spinning so that the axis is if you took a ball taped for a 4-seam fastball in the 12:6 position, turned the whole ball sideways so the stripe is no longer in line with the ball-path, but sideways, and the ball is rotating inline with the stripe. (so you don't really see the stripe at all from the catcher's perspective. See sketch attached)
Note: a little bit of "sideways yaw" is common, and can cause the ball to "cut"... but her's is too sideways right now...)

Question: does it make sense that these two different bullet-spinning balls would track differently? Her curveball does indeed "break", so I'm guessing she is throwing the corkscrew curve with correct axis? And her sometimes bullet spinning "Drop" is the bullet-spin axis that most on the board try to avoid?



Thanks.

 

[Dial]

Yes it does make sense that they would track differently. If you watch her video an you see the spin axis is in the middle of the horseshoe, that is what is causing it to break. This is for the corkscrew.

My DD does the same on her drop and its because of her brush interference being more towards the elbow than the wrist and the body is not causing the wrist to snap and the forearm doesnt fully rotate. She is just guessing on the release part. Sometimes when she has to much bend in the elbow and she holds the ball to long she gets 3-9 spin which looks cool and it breaks 6-8 inches. We are still learning about making the ball do what you want it to do and expecting it.

 

[sluggers]

Sorry, but that is not how spin works. Seem orientation doesn't matter.

Bullet spin occurs when the spin axis is in the same direction as the plate. That is, the spin axis is the same as a line between home and 2B. If the ball rotates around that axis, the ball will *NOT* break.

"Bullet spin" is called "bullet spin" because it has the same spin as a bullet shot from a rifle. Rifling in the barrel causes the bullet to spin. The spin keeps the bullet "true" during its flight.

Attached are pictures of spin.

For Ball A, the spin is for a true 6-12 riseball. This is pure backspin.
For Ball B, the spin is 12-6 drop ball spin (drop ball in softball, curve ball in baseball).
For Ball C, the spin is bullet spin. The axis of rotation is in the same direction as the ball.

Bullet spin pitches fall less than a ball with 12-6 spin, but fall more than a ball with 6-12 spin.

The video evidence we have so far suggests that a screwballs are thrown with bullet spin.

Based upon several discussions here on the board, a screwball which actually breaks has yet to be found. People have reported sightings of such a pitch in the Himalayas, but no pictures or corroborating evidence exists.

 

[JJsqueeze]

what about a slider? A slider has a very large component of bullet spin and lines up with what Corlay is seeing. It is not pure bullet spin but it is mostly bullet spin. What is the secret to it's moving? Seam variance between the two sides of the ball. This won't happen with pure bullet spin, but you can orient a ball in such a way that a pitch thrown with mostly bullet spin will indeed break.

There are not very many slow motion clips of a slider rotation, but here is one that is decent. You can see there is a lot of bullet spin in the pitch. 7:03 mark


[video]http://videosift.com/video/Baseball-Pitches-Explained-in-Slow-Motion[/video]

More heresy....many girls throwing riseballs are getting a riser effect with this same technique

 

[JJsqueeze]

see the 54 second mark for that two seam riser effect.....curve spin with a bald spot on top of the ball. I also saw a kid this weekend who's pitch profile looked weir do me for her speed. Her pitches looked like they were on a line and not dropping nearly as much as everyone else's at the same speed. I went down behind the backstop to see what the spin was and this is the spin I saw.....

 

[Rocketech1]

The video evidence we have so far suggests that a screwballs are thrown with bullet spin.

Based upon several discussions here on the board, a screwball which actually breaks has yet to be found. People have reported sightings of such a pitch in the Himalayas, but no pictures or corroborating evidence exists.

Sluggers - while I generally agree with you about bullet spin and seam orientation, I disagree that the screwball doesn't break and is always thrown with bullet spin. For example, while I do not believe that anyone throws a pure 9-3 spin screwball, I have seen lots of screwballs thrown with 1/7 (and occasional 2/8) as seen from the catcher than does move in to a right-handed batter more than the same pitch thrown with topspin (12/6 dropball) thrown to the same location. While most of the "movement' has to do with the angle of release of the pitch, my question to you is "Doesn't the ball tend to move in the direction of the spin". All things being equal, a 1/7 spin pitch will move a little into a right-handed batter vs. a 12/6 spin pitch thrown to the same location will not.

 

[corlay]

A "corkscrew curve" is a commonly-referenced pitch that many (most?) agree is a viable "breaking pitch" to learn.
Can someone explain the spin axis/tilt/yaw that is ideal to throw this pitch?

 

[sluggers]

There is mass confusion about breaking pitches. I agree that most kids throw bullet spin for a riseball. It drops less than a pitch thrown with 12-6 spin. It drops more than one thrown with 6-12 or 1-7 spin. In combination with other pitches, it can be effective.

Bullet spin pitches are thrown a lot...that doesn't mean they move horizontally.

"Pitching" is about a combination of pitches. The batter forms an expectation of ball location based upon her observation of previous pitches. Any time the ball location ends up different than what the batter expected, the batter perceives a "break". A batter perceives "break" on the screwball because the release point and hand action is different from the fastball (whatever that might be), not because the ball moves.

JJ, on your baseball video, if I ignore the pitcher's hand, I don't see a break.

I do wish the had used a new ball for your softball video. The ball is really scuffed up. It looks to me like the axis is wobbling.

 

[Ken B]

Just learned it recently and haven't got a chance to really play with it, but when I throw a corkscrew curve, I get a pretty flat spin. Sometimes the axis is a little tipped, but generally curve spin.

The axis of a sphere can't wobble unless another force (lobsided ball or water logged on one side) acts on it.

 

[corlay]

Just learned it recently and haven't got a chance to really play with it, but when I throw a corkscrew curve, I get a pretty flat spin.

Ken, what makes the pitch a 'corkscrew' if it has "pretty flat spin" I'm wondering?