Another Dad looking for swing analysis and some hitting advice

[FiveFrameSwing]

Look inside, react outside sounds like the proper progression, for a reaction, say with two strikes, but is that the way to go about every pitch?

We see this a bit differently ... almost completely opposite.

Prior to two strikes, a hitter using the entire strike zone, and especially if they are challenged by the pitcher's speed, would benefit from a "look in, react out" mindset. It is with two strikes when many hitters consider changing that mindset ... per their 'plan'.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree, for the from stance, to launch, the same, but then the dilemma begins.

Look inside, react outside sounds like the proper progression, for a reaction, say with two strikes, but is that the way to go about every pitch?

Or, should you .. have a plan?

i do not mean to hijack this thread, a new one might be a good idea.
off to work

We still don't agree here ... which is fine, we are on a 'discussion board' after all. IMO the capture of transition of the barrel is the same for both a swing to the 'inside' and 'outside'.

We have fundamentally different views of the swing.

IMO, a hitter working on performing proper swing mechanics to ‘outside pitches’ is simultaneously improving their ability to hit ‘inside pitches’. Likewise, a hitter working on performing proper swing mechanics to ‘inside pitches’ is simultaneously improving their ability to hit ‘outside pitches’.

You teach an ‘inside swing’ versus an ‘outside swing’. I disagree with the notion of teaching a different ‘inside swing’ versus ‘outside swing’, and instead believe it is better to teach the extremes of ‘the swing’.

You state that the swings for ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ are different … and I believe that the basic swings are the same, and that the swing taught needs to cover these extremes.

You teach first guessing ‘inside’ versus ‘outside’ and then selecting an appropriate swing to use … I teach that every swing starts the same way and becomes a reaction to pitch location.

You speak of working on hitting ‘outside pitches’ making your players worse at hitting ‘inside pitches’ … and I say that if you worked on hitting ‘outside pitches’ properly, that your hitters would be improving their ability to hit ‘inside pitches’.

Prior to a pitch you have a hitter choose between ‘inside’ or ‘outside’ in performing a swing … and I believe there is a time for that, that such a mentality not be a default, and that the basic swing should NOT be taught from a perspective of believing that the swing is fundamentally different for ‘inside’ versus ‘outside’ extremes. I believe teaching the swing as needing to first chose between using an ‘inside swing’ versus an ‘outside swing’ places the hitter at a disadvantage when they guess wrong … and that while there are times for such guesses, that it need not be the basic default, and neither should it be built upon a firm belief of using a fundamentally different swing.

 

[softballphreak]

If I'm understanding you, you're saying, i.e., the hands stay in close for any pitch; the barrel is then thrown in the direction of the ball. If the pitch is inside the barrel is thrown inside, if the pitch is outside the barrel is thrown outside. But the hands stay in close until the ball dictates otherwise.

Of course, the pitch location determines how deep POC should be.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The default is as you suggest ... a tight hand-pivot-point ... i.e., the hands staying in close until hitting the ball with direction dictates otherwise.

In terms of what Mann and I are describing, there is a fundamental difference of ‘when’. It’s the difference of treating the swing as a ‘reaction’ versus selecting a specific swing to use ahead of time.

For me, the capture of transition of the barrel is such that the barrel’s initial swing arc allows for a reaction to throw the barrel to a ball pitched on the outside edge of the plate, or to maintain a tight hand-pivot-point … what you tried to describe in your previous post.

How Mann is describing the swing requires first knowing if the pitch is ‘inside’ or ‘outside’ … and what I am attempting to describe allows that knowledge to take place later.

 

[Ken Krause]

I personally welcome all factual data. Would welcome data that promotes what you advocate.

I will throw this one back to you. Don't know why I didn't think of it before.

You haven't presented any actual data. You've presented a chart that refers to some unnamed study of MLB hitters. That is not data. I can make a chart.

Please provide a link to the actual data that is included in this study so others can review it in its raw form as well. Use the same criteria that your high school English teacher did - cite all sources.

That being said, I can say with absolute certainty that a MLB player who is capable of hitting a home run is stronger than a 12 year old girl. Or a 20 year girl for that matter. I can say with absolute certainty that a baseball weighs less than a softball (roughly 5 ounces v nearly 7 ounces), so the same swing in the same location will produce different results.

Bats in MLB weigh 30 to 33 ounces, versus 22-24 ounces for most college players (there are exceptions at 28 ounces for very strong girls), which means more mass is being applied to a lighter object by a hitter with greater upper body strength. That being the case, contact out front on outside pitches is highly likely to produce different results for a MLB hitter than a young softball hitter based on Newton's second law of motion, i.e. force = mass x acceleration. The higher mass of the bat coupled with the lower mass of the ball times the greater acceleration achieved by a bigger, stronger hitter will create much greater force, allowing that MLB hitter to do things a softball hitter can't.

I also can't believe there were no home runs hit with the ball deeper in the zone, especially given the previous discussion of Pujols letting the ball get deeper. It just doesn't add up. Even by accident, some home runs must've been hit deeper.

What I can't tell from this (because I can't refer to the actual data) is whether these contact points are relative to the batter or relative to the plate. Is the plate shown an arbitrary insertion, or is it showing actual contact relative to the plate? If the latter, it would need to be adjusted for where the hitter is standing in the batter's box. A hitter who may be up more might back contact in front of the plate, but across his body if he is further up. Probably unlikely but worth considering.

In order for the data presented to be of value to parents trying to help their daughters be successful in fastpitch softball, it would have to be equally applicable to young girls as well as fully grown, adult male professional athletes. You can pull all the data you want about MLB hitters, but the size, strength, athletic ability, experience and other differentiating factors have a huge impact on the ability to execute the same thing.

It would be interesting to see the same study applied to players in AAA, AA and A ball. I wonder if they have the pattern? Or is it that things that get one into MLB make it possible to hit that outside pitch further out front and still produce a home run. I also wonder how many outside pitches hit out front went for outs instead of home runs? Perhaps this data indicates an anomaly, or a low-percentage play. If the outs to home runs ratio is 20:1, statistically I'd say it's a bad bet.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ken, when you begin supplying factual data, then you can ask others for the same and they will take you seriously.

I supplied factual data. What do you think swing clips are?

The answer to your question pertaining to relative position was already answered ... suggesting you didn't read that carefully ... which makes me wonder if you really read the thread in detail in the first place.

 

[Ken Krause]

Ken, when you begin supplying factual data, then you can ask others for the same and they will take you seriously.

I supplied factual data. What do you think swing clips are?

The answer to your question pertaining to relative position was already answered ... suggesting you didn't read that carefully ... which makes me wonder if you really read the thread in detail in the first place.

FFS, swing clips aren't data. They are swing clips. Data is numbers, carefully researched with a large enough sampling to be an indication of a trend. For example, Baseball Prospectus provides data. They look at everything that happened over a given period of time, explaining what data was used and how it was used, and how the analysis was performed. If you're going to claim to provide data, you absolutely must cite the source.

My guess is the source is you sitting in your basement watching video clips and drawing conclusions. That's not data. It's observation. Same as what I offer when I tell what I see female fastpitch hitters do when they hit the outside pitch too early.

If your so-called data comes from a legitimate, credible source, why are you afraid to share that source? It's a pretty common practice when you quote a study to provide attribution.

 

[mann]

i defiantly do not teach two different swings.
I just set the tee deeper, and have then swing out from their body with extension towards right.

I do teach them( not all, since their skills level vary), to have a "plan", not to just react.

You teach them, like they have two strikes every pitch.

When I bat, I have a plan, and I look for specific pitches.
I split the plate in two, middle in, or middle out. (two thirds of plate, in or out)
Times might call for going oppo, runners at first and second for instance. or if the plan would be to pull, look inside.

I teach my hitters, to look at the situation, and choose wisely, looking for a specific pitch, until, if they get behind, they must protect.












but










So what I am saying is, the kids when I first teach going oppo, they tend to then cast, arm bar, and not turn enough on inside pitches.

they loose that tight pivot point, and hands fly out, causing handle shots, on inside.

Since working on oppo, which did go well, (my dd, hit her second front toss, over the 200, right field fence), our hitting has suffered.

Tonight, we play our second game, in our series for district champions, two out of three, (we won last night),
I am going to tighten up our swings, we will look inside all game. We will work on staying short, turning the barrel, keeping the barrel uup, every trick I can to repair that dreaded arm barring.

 

[tjintx]

It's great to give them a plan when they go to bat. I like it.
I have a Q about swinging out from the body. Do you teach them to swing out from the body ONLY when hitting outside pitches or did I misread your post? My point being if you do only teach swinging out from the body on outside pitches then you are teaching two different swings.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ken, I'm earnestly looking forward to you actually sharing and providing examples of what you consider to be data. Please follow through.

The plot I gave was my summary of a report I read. The verification stage, which should exist for everyone, is just that ... a verification stage.

You wrote what you consider to be helpful to readers. IMO what will help many of the readers here is knowledge of efficient movement patterns that are commonly seen by those that play this game at the highest level … and the highest level remains MLB. While few will obtain the HLBB pattern, it remains the basic blueprint for moving hitters forward along a development path. Having a good roadmap, and using a tool such as the Hanson Principle, provides readers with a path and a tool/mindset to help stay on a healthy development path.