Another Dad looking for swing analysis and some hitting advice

[softballphreak]

Arizona State's Annie Lockwood, 2011 WCWS, HR:

 

[RichK]

Two things:

FFS, many have asked you share a link to the study you are quoting. Since you have reviewed the data, I assume you have a link to it. Please share it. I do find the POC illustration you created interesting. I'd love to learn more about the data behind it. Tks.

As for setting the tee deeper in training, one could certainly make the case that setting it there lets an instructor both teach and verify swing *depth*, which many say is an important swing attribute. A hitter wants to have swing depth -- much like they want to create swing direction -- whether they use it in every live swing or not. Showing some example live swings with a point of contact at the front foot does not make it any less important to teach a swing with sufficient depth (especially when softballphreak has now shown a good number of swings with a deeper POC). Positioning tees deeper in the stance is a great way to train the hitter to create that depth.

 

[MountieSB]

I'm interested in this conversation. Would there be any validity to the theory that men (MLB players) can "get away" with hitting outside pitches out in front of them with power because of the upper-body-strength advantage they have over female players? Women don't have that same advantage physically, so could you assert that in this case, those swings (being able to hit out front with power) are an apples-to-oranges comparison? This isn't a "softball swing is different than a baseball swing" conversation (that's a fallacy in my opinion), rather a "men are built differently than women" conversation (that's a physical reality).

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

RichK, if I had information that I could share, or a link I could provide, then I would do that. Best I can do is provide a summary ... and in any event, I myself half to seek confirmation of such findings, just as I ask others to do. The Hanson Principle rules in such cases.

Early on (page 2) Softballphreak mentioned Cabrera hitting the ball deeper in a response to tee placement. So I grabbed some clips of Cabrera (one of my favorite hitters) and observed where the tee would be placed for his swings ... which reminded me of the prior study.

My personal thoughts are as follows.

You don’t instruct a kid to allow outside pitches to get deep WHILE going out and getting inside pitches. Instead, as SBF referenced earlier in this thread, good hitters such as Pujols try to “wait and let EVERY PITCH get deep in the zone”.

If a hitter becomes accustomed to “going out to get the ball” … of getting their arms out front … then they will limit themselves as to how far they can reach the outside portion of the plate. Something that Doc Yeager would stress is having the upper lead arm across your chest. Notice in the swings that were shown that the lead upper arm was commonly across the chest of the hitter. If their lead arm was further away from their chest then their reach to the outer portion of the plate would have been compromised … this would cause a hitter to need to be closer to the plate, and this would negatively impact their inside plate coverage.

The intent doesn’t change whether the pitch is inside or outside … we still try to hit the ball as deep in the zone as possible (rear arm minimally extended) and we do this with direction in mind.

 

[mann]

You don’t instruct a kid to allow outside pitches to get deep WHILE going out and getting inside pitches. Instead, as SBF referenced earlier in this thread, good hitters such as Pujols try to “wait and let EVERY PITCH get deep in the zone”.




This is a very good conversation, as right now, it is exactly what my team has been working on, hitting oppo, or pulling, or hitting up the middle.

I am a very good oppo hitter, and I tell MYSELF, to let the ball come in deeper.
For INside, when I want to pull, I tell Myself, to Turn on the ball.

you might have heard of having TO CHOOSE, inside or outside, Middle in, or, MiDDLE out.

After our OPPO practice the kids then had trouble, with handle shots.
There was two problems, casting, from the OPPO swing, and letting the ball get to deep. Ok, three problems, not turning the hips.

The swings ARE different.

if I let that inside pitch get to far into the zone, I lose that good optimum contact.


So, please continue with some other coaches chiming in on how you teach, handling in and out.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mann, I suppose one way to view an inside pitch is to think “Turn on the ball”. Personally, I like to think of hitting the ball with ‘direction’ and my body becomes turned in doing so. That is, the focus for me is more on direction, and the lower body supports that objective … which IMO is the focus one needs in the batter’s box.

Let’s give an example.

Earlier Softballphreak posted Danae hitting an outside pitch ….

Danae Hays. Double:

Here is Danae hitting an inside pitch ….

Notice that the top arm is minimally extended here. She has in a sense hit the ball as deep in the zone as possible while maintaining a sense of direction.

This may seem counter intuitive … but the notion of “going out to get inside pitches” and “hitting outside pitches deep in the zone”, is actually backwards when you take the perspective of hitting the ball close to your body so as to minimize the extension of the top arm at contact.

Instead, the top arm should be minimally extended for an inside pitch at the point-of-contact (which is why you become more 'turned'), and will be more extended for an outside pitch at the point of contact. The mentality on all pitches is to hit the pitch as deep in the zone WITH direction. You use that same approach on all pitches. For an inside pitch that mentality will have your body turned more (using your terminology) with the top arm minimally extended at contact, and for an outside pitch the direction will require that your top arm become more extended. Direction being the key here.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

you might have heard of having TO CHOOSE, inside or outside, Middle in, or, MiDDLE out.

Mann, this here is a somewhat different topic IMO.

When a hitter is overwhelmed by the pitcher, or for whatever reason is highly challenged, … which as an example, can be the case when a decent team first attends the Independence Day tournament and faces top national level pitching … then a strategy of guessing, or dividing the plate in half, can be helpful. A hitter largely focused on a certain area of the strike zone can be more productive IF the pitch is thrown to that zone, and that increased productivity can help a hitter deal with a pitcher that has them highly challenged. It goes without saying … at the higher levels, 'runs scored' is often less and a team’s defensive ability becomes key to being able to play at that level.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The swings ARE different.

IMO a hitter only needs to learn one basic swing. I don’t believe hitters should be learning a different swing for each location of the strike zone.

Let’s try to make this simpler.

Consider the perspective of “looking inside, and reacting outside”. From that perspective you look first for the pitch being inside, and ‘react’ to the pitch not being inside. The ‘react’ can be thought of as the allowance of extension of the top arm … and that allowance of extension is largely governed by direction.

In simple terms … it’s a throw of the bat head … a throw with direction.

 

[softballphreak]

What I tell players to do with the inside pitch is keep their hands in tight to the chest and hit the inside of the ball. Of course, it will have to be hit farther out front than the outside pitch.

One of the front toss drills I do is to throw a few outside and then I'll throw WAY inside and insist they keep the inside pitch in fair territory.

I use the term "uncomfortably close" when talking about keeping the hands near the chest.

 

[mann]

IMO a hitter only needs to learn one basic swing. I don’t believe hitters should be learning a different swing for each location of the strike zone.

Let’s try to make this simpler.

Consider the perspective of “looking inside, and reacting outside”. From that perspective you look first for the pitch being inside, and ‘react’ to the pitch not being inside. The ‘react’ can be thought of as the allowance of extension of the top arm … and that allowance of extension is largely governed by direction.

In simple terms … it’s a throw of the bat head … a throw with direction.

I agree, for the from stance, to launch, the same, but then the dilemma begins.

Look inside, react outside sounds like the proper progression, for a reaction, say with two strikes, but is that the way to go about every pitch?

Or, should you .. have a plan?

i do not mean to hijack this thread, a new one might be a good idea.
off to work