3rd out runs scores

[The Man In Blue]

Although the rulebook does not use this language, I find it help to think of it in these terms:

"Force" in this usage means the runner is no longer entitled to the base they are on; they are forced to vacate the base because another runner is now entitled to it. A force play entitles the defense to tag the base or the runner for the out. No runs score when the third out is made on a force play. Period. No exception there. A force play is a situation, not an action.

Hence ... a tag on a forced runner is still a force out (situation, not action). Tagging the base the forced runner is advancing to is a force out (situation, not action). A potential run scoring and a third out on a successful appeal is a time play. The run scores if the scoring runner beats the out.

A play on a runner tagging up is not a force play. Although required to return to the base, the runner is not forced to vacate the base (action, not situation).

A forced runner becomes an unforced runner once a succeeding forced runner is put out (action has removed the situation).

 

[Big Daddy Michigan]

Funny you should mention this...


A few years ago the HP Ump from my earlier post "Sort out this Little League Cluster... Mess" blew this call too. He & the tournament manager made things worse by not understanding the appeals process.

First inning- On a dropped 3rd strike a runner scored from third, but the batter/runner was retired on a force at first. He deemed the run counted & the defensive team protested. They appealed the call to Indianapolis, but did not suspend the game while waiting fo a response. The game was played 1-0 until the top of the 6th when Indy finally called back and corrected the score to 0-0. The same team scored in the bottom of the 6th and won 1-0, but still everyone should have known better.

 

[Strike2]

Astonishing that something this basic is even a discussion item. Then again, when I was keeping book many years ago during one of DD's 10U games, the umpire walked over to me to make sure that I didn't score the run on the third out, which was a force play. After confirming that I didn't, I asked why he was checking. He replied that he'd seen too many parents who had no understanding of that concept. An umpire getting this wrong should never be allowed to call another game.

 

[dlsumpntx]

"An umpire getting this wrong should never be allowed to call another game"
No, just some education/training required.

 

[eddieq]

To be clear - umpires get stuff wrong all the time. We are human. That doesn't make you a bad umpire or a failure at it. Where we can be said to fail is if we neglect/refuse to educate ourselves and correct the error for the next time. I learned a few valuable mechanics lessons by having crap mechanics on a couple of plays. Learn how to do it right by doing it wrong.

An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.

 

[_MIA_]

Umpiring crew screwed this up against us this a few months ago. Run was counted, then taken off after consultation with the UIC and then put back on since the UIC was consulted too late..or something like. Also almost caused a brawl as a hot head parent on our team got into it with a hot head parent on the other team..good times.

Not that it matters but the funny thing is the run actually didn't cross the plate before the tag was applied even though the PU, who wasn't looking at the runner crossing home plate (not sure of the procedure on this since it wouldn't matter as long as the tag was applied before the runner crossed the bag), said it did (I went back and looked at the video afterwards).

 

[Strike2]

"An umpire getting this wrong should never be allowed to call another game"
No, just some education/training required.

There are plenty of uncommon situations and arcane rules in FP softball that umpires can and do learn from as they go along. That's different than what we're talking about here...

The concept of no score on the third out if it's a force play is basic, routine, and probably in every umpire qualification test ever taken. I understood it as a kid playing baseball. From T-ball to college, I've never seen an umpire get that wrong. If someone can't get that right every time, they have no understanding of the game, and no business on the field officiating.

 

[canyonjoe]

Almost everyone who is here knows this rule but I have seen it scored wrong by scorekeepers. It's always worth checking to make sure they have the right score especially if you are visitors. It's a lot easier to correct this at the time it happens but if you realize 2 innings later it's a problem. Again, most get it right but there are those who make the mistake.

 

[EdLovrich]

This is why umpires have mechanics. The proper mechanic on a play that involves both a 3rd out AND a runner crossing the plate is to either point at the plate and announce "That run scores" or look to the press box/scorer and announce "No run" while waving the run off with both arms over your head.

 

[_MIA_]

This is why umpires have mechanics. The proper mechanic on a play that involves both a 3rd out AND a runner crossing the plate is to either point at the plate and announce "That run scores" or look to the press box/scorer and announce "No run" while waving the run off with both arms over your head.

So the PU's responsibility on that is to determine whether the runner crossed home before an out was recorded even in the case where a force play is in effect?