10u pitcher throws 4 straight games

[riseball]

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. Being a baseball guy, until I read this I was under the same general impression that most casual fans are: no need for pitch counts in softball, arms don't get hurt, blah blah blah.

I threw my top pitcher (12U rec, thuough she probably should be in travel) 3+ games, probably around 300 pitches, during our 1 day tourney. Her mom (ex college pitcher) was an assistant for me, and I checked with her often on whether or not to pull her DD. The response I got was to let her go until she tired, which ended up being in the 1st inning of the championship game, her 4th on the day. Actually, when I consider it she really started tire in the last inning of the semifinal.

Anyway, I wish I'd found this site earlier, I'd have pulled her much sooner. Now that I know, the ability to develop pitching has moved way up my priority list for me, and keeping closer track of pitch counts.

Thanks again to everyone here!

Ray

Keep watching your pitchers, chart every pitch and you will develop a feel for when they have had enough. Then you can switch things up before bad things happen. Your pitchers and parents will thank you for it. There are no magic formulas and hard counts are a disservice to all concerned.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Keep watching your pitchers, chart every pitch and you will develop a feel for when they have had enough. Then you can switch things up before bad things happen. Your pitchers and parents will thank you for it. There are no magic formulas and hard counts are a disservice to all concerned.

I understand, and thank you. Didn't mean to imply that a hard count was in my plan, just that I neeed to be aware of the number of pitches thrown.

Ray

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

...There is enough data out there for people to stop doing this to kids.

Maybe that data isn't as easily available as it could be? Or the knowledge isn't as widespread as it should be? And the talking heads that announce the WCWS certainly don't help, talking about this or that pitcher throwing 3 games in a day with astronomical pitch counts.

I'm not making excuses for me, I should have researched it more. But I'd like to help spread the word-is there a definitive paper that you know of?

Ray

 

[riseball]

Nothing is definitive. It varies significantly from player to player. Any numbers thrown out are pure conjecture.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Nothing is definitive. It varies significantly from player to player. Any numbers thrown out are pure conjecture.

What I mean by "definitive" is: is there a research paper out there that has examined pitcher injury incident rates with regards to fastpitch softball pitchers and pitch counts? Not looking for a number, looking for the reasearch.

As for varying significantly between pitchers, I would expect that to be addressed in the paper. There might be variances, but they might or might not be significant. This is the question that needs asking and answering.

So far everything I've read has been anecdotal, though produced by some doctors and some long time softball coaches. The only reason I'm giving any weight to the writings is because of who wrote them. That said, I'd really like to have a scientific study in hand that addresses the issue directly.

I realize that what I'm asking for may well be impossible to provide given the long lead time for injury onset, and the lack of lifetime stats for most players. I'm just wondering if it's been done or attempted.

Ray

 

[Greenmonsters]

What I mean by "definitive" is: is there a research paper out there that has examined pitcher injury incident rates with regards to fastpitch softball pitchers and pitch counts? Not looking for a number, looking for the reasearch.

As for varying significantly between pitchers, I would expect that to be addressed in the paper. There might be variances, but they might or might not be significant. This is the question that needs asking and answering.

So far everything I've read has been anecdotal, though produced by some doctors and some long time softball coaches. The only reason I'm giving any weight to the writings is because of who wrote them. That said, I'd really like to have a scientific study in hand that addresses the issue directly.

I realize that what I'm asking for may well be impossible to provide given the long lead time for injury onset, and the lack of lifetime stats for most players. I'm just wondering if it's been done or attempted.

Ray

If MLB hasn't figured it out, you can bet fastpitch softball hasn't either. At least, the concept of overuse in FP SB game today is a topic of conversation because historically it wasn't.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The sports medicine doctor who has come up with pitch counts, which I think are overly conservative, has found a starting point. Also, I think Cindy Bristow. I was provided a list of pitch counts and the 10-percent prinicipal when I attended a coaching clinic. There has been work done, and you can dig it out, even the old study in 1995.

For younger players, saying it depends on each player is not acceptable; the number of games played by 10us has doubled and tripled recently. And over the years the amount of coaches amping up the "must win" mentality has creeped younger and younger and earlier and earlier to the point a coach and parent will often think the latest 10u tourney is life or death to win. Yeah, they will throw the pitcher for 3-4 games there. Kids at that age want to please adults and we must take responsibility to keep things healthy.

All kids have a general limit of safety that can be determined. If an exceptional kid can go beyond, that will be an exception.

If you are talking 18 year olds pitching for the ASA Gold championships, yes you can push them further.

PS. Since following them at JV and sending the limits home to parents, we have had less overuse. Now I was not able to control some of my V players who are also on TB teams. As I have also said, my star who just graduated is a physical mess.

How???????

 

[riseball]

None of the papers I have seen comprehensively address the issue of mechanics. For the pitcher with crap mechanics 1 pitch is 1 too many. There is no silver bullet. Dare I say you need to think, use common sense and draw your own conclusions.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

None of the papers I have seen comprehensively address the issue of mechanics. For the pitcher with crap mechanics 1 pitch is 1 too many. There is no silver bullet. Dare I say you need to think, use common sense and draw your own conclusions.

Agreed, but hard data statistically analyzed would be a huge help. I'd love it if you could point me at some of the papers you've found (if you have the info handy)? I haven't had a chance to search them out yet.

Ray

 

[josh]

I'm a data person myself, sadly, I doubt there is much. I like the 10% thing, but its certainly individual dependent, Data makes me happy.

The pitchers on our 8U team range from 4' 55 lbs to 4'8 90 lbs, and all else equal if there pitch speeds were the same the 4' girl would be working harder (pitch speeds are not the same though)

I think that taller pitchers with longer arms probably can throw a little more than shorter girls who work much harder to get the same speeds. But admittedly its just a guess, I played baseball and am well aware of the motion and strains it induces, but have only about 7 months knowing anything about softball pitching.