Illegal Pitch?

sleepwalker · Jul 7, 2017

From the guy that can't call this an illegal pitch? Sound like we have the same umpires you represent. You are talking about them, but here you are not calling an illegal pitch also.

I am interested in why you think that she is pitching illegally. Is it because other posters have said it is illegal and you are going with the flow? The original poster said that the conversation at the ball park was some thought it was illegal and some thought it was legal. I watched both videos several times looking for some glaring reason why it would be an illegal pitch and couldn't find one.

The second push 8" to 12" away from the mound didn't bother me also, because it does look like there is a hole in front of the mound.

I think if we were all sitting at the ball park watching this gal pitch, we would be somewhere near the OP's comment of some said it was legal and some said it was illegal.

Rocketech1 · Jul 7, 2017

sleepwalker;443267The [B said:
second push [/B]8" to 12" away from the mound didn't bother me also, because it does look like there is a hole in front of the mound.

Here is another problem with the pitching regulations. The rule that you can leap the level of the ground if there is a hole in front of the pitching plate allows the pitcher to "leap", however it does not give them the ok for a "second push" (i.e.replant) Two different rules but very confusing and extremely difficult to enforce, especially when its subtly done as is shown in the video.

I use the example of pitching in baseball. No IPs (balks) are ever called on the pitcher without baserunners leading off because the rules are simple and easily enforceable. Fastpitch on the other hand created a complete mess of pitching by requiring a totally unnecessary "leap and drag" requirement that is an artifact from the 1950's and hasn't progressed with the modern game. As we have seen in another thread, the International and Men's game allows leaping, when is the U.S. girls/women's game going to follow suit? Time to raise the white flag, admit there is a big problem, and make the change as this current farce of non-compliance and non-enforcement will be going on for another decade. Enough is enough....

Comp · Jul 7, 2017

Here is a rule clarification you may want to read from USA softball, NFHS has a similar statement although I cannot find it at the moment.

Fast Pitch Pitching Styles
For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

DmystifieD · Jul 7, 2017

Comp said:
Here is a rule clarification you may want to read from USA softball, NFHS has a similar statement although I cannot find it at the moment.

Fast Pitch Pitching Styles
For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

BINGO! simple game. This really isn't a tough subject to comprehend, nor new. This is EXACTLY why we have been taught this for at least 10 years... on the west coast. No clue where else they teach it, I would say others have accepted the practice and are doing it. This brings us back to the point that this game is not about freeze frames, slow mo, still photos or gif's. It's about live action, and a human being trained (or even lack thereof) to watch the drag foot and its separation from ground/plane. I have found that once one accepts that you will then stop bashing your daughters competition or peers. Now, here is what I have found with the bashing since it is ALL over california.... It is NEVER a teammate parent or coach calling a kid a cheat, it is always another pitchers dad OR another team parent/coach that tries to show how smart they are about the rules. Hey, if the shoe fits! lol. It's been a part of this game a LONG time.

DmystifieD · Jul 7, 2017

we are taught 2 things early on.

1. Explode off pitchers plate.
2. keep toe on ground as LITTLE as possible, creating NO drag is ideal. (Drag is Drag. See NASCAR.)

There is no #3. Nothing EVER taught that says dont let that knee bend at pitch. I really have to laugh.

Rocketech1 · Jul 7, 2017

DmystifieD said:
2. keep toe on ground as LITTLE as possible, creating NO drag is ideal. (Drag is Drag. See NASCAR.)
.

But some DFP members would have us believe that dragging the foot along the ground is more effecient and natural than leaping. Common sense and experience says otherwise....

riseball · Jul 7, 2017

DmystifieD said:
BINGO! simple game. This really isn't a tough subject to comprehend, nor new. This is EXACTLY why we have been taught this for at least 10 years... on the west coast. No clue where else they teach it, I would say others have accepted the practice and are doing it. This brings us back to the point that this game is not about freeze frames, slow mo, still photos or gif's. It's about live action, and a human being trained (or even lack thereof) to watch the drag foot and its separation from ground/plane. I have found that once one accepts that you will then stop bashing your daughters competition or peers. Now, here is what I have found with the bashing since it is ALL over california.... It is NEVER a teammate parent or coach calling a kid a cheat, it is always another pitchers dad OR another team parent/coach that tries to show how smart they are about the rules. Hey, if the shoe fits! lol. It's been a part of this game a LONG time.

I would love for you to articulate your reasoning on why having a bent pivot leg, pointed in the opposite direction of the force you are trying to create is somehow a good thing. This is the hallmark of someone with a forced unnatural opening. It is by all definition a mechanical flaw. It does nothing to improve command, in fact is makes it harder to locate pitches. I am at a loss to understand how it could improve movement, and it actually hinders velocity. Just because some folks on the left coast think it is a good idea, it does not mean it makes sense. Lost of things come from the left coast that make no sense whatsoever.

riseball · Jul 7, 2017

Rocketech1 said:
But some DFP members would have us believe that dragging the foot along the ground is more effecient and natural than leaping...

Do not recall anyone ever saying that. If I did not know better it would seem you are taking DFP members comments deliberately taking them out of context.

You need to understand why they are leaping. You can open naturally, leap or drag and you will be much more efficient than those that force the opening and subsequently leap because they have poor mechanics. Leaping because of poor mechanics does not equate to higher performance. Championing poor mechanics does no favors to anyone. You are basing your comments on a very simplistic view of pitching mechanics. There is much more to it.

DmystifieD · Jul 7, 2017

riseball said:
I would love for you to articulate your reasoning on why having a bent pivot leg, pointed in the opposite direction of the force you are trying to create is somehow a good thing. This is the hallmark of someone with a forced unnatural opening. It is by all definition a mechanical flaw. It does nothing to improve command, in fact is makes it harder to locate pitches. I am at a loss to understand how it could improve movement, and it actually hinders velocity. Just because some folks on the left coast think it is a good idea, it does not mean it makes sense. Lost of things come from the left coast that make no sense whatsoever.

I dont know if my reasoning really matters, nor is it the poster verbiage for how to throw. I can offer this. To me, this is a "build", just like any other mechanic from any instructor. I say this as most girls entering this type of intended explosion off plate do NOT have any clue of the "perceived" advantage.

Here is where we will agree. You take a girl with either HE or IR and drag and bring them to an instructor who teaches this and the first thing you have is a girl who has lost velocity and/or command is pretty much out the door, and shoot, you probably have a bum knee or ankle forming from this new repetitive motion. The difference in the thinking though is this is a build, not a switch and go.

What do I mean by build? You have to learn to walk before you can skip or run applies here. Can you right now leap across your carpet say 3 feet, then plant explode again and simulate a throw? I can, but I sure as hell couldn't day 1, 2 10 or 20. As each day went by and I continued this it got easier. Kind of like skipping. Now add the fact that i was really burning my big toe on the carpet the first few weeks (mind you i didn't practice this anywhere near as much as the student, but I had to get it down) As time went by i now just breeze the top of the carpet if any carpet at all. In fact, I just went and did it now before typing this sentence and patted myself on the back, I still got it! hehe.

per the rules, I am 100% legal. I can leap as far as i want and as long as the thread holding the toe on my cleat or the bottom piece of metal on my cleat or heck, even the Cal Berkeley "toe flap" is on a plane with pitchers plate/dirt I am legal. Now all I have to do is throw the living daylights out of it after yet another explosion. Mind you, the 2nd explosion is nowhere near the gravity of the first but, it follows the first! When I say follows there is quite a bit of momentum coming now with this 2nd explosion. If I can not perform this correctly I am going to be "showing air between cleat and plane" to the human eye and get called for IP until the behavior is corrected.

I haven't said bent knee once.

I also agree with you its not a good idea "just because" someone else does, however I give you osterman, carda and barnhill. They do it really damn good! Oddly enough my 3 examples span California, Texas and Georgia. This is a national deal, not localized.

Now a word about movement. You either throw 65+ or you don't. If you do AND you release the ball from 38-39 feet from plate, then you wont have any movement, any noteworthy movement. You bring the heat to one of 4 locations, and the rise to one of 2. Now mix in a change. 3 pitches and a skimming carpet is all they need. If you dont have that velocity then you are spinning it from 38-39 feet, better maximize spin or we will back you up 1-2 feet for spin to have enough air to break. Either can be effective of course.

riseball · Jul 7, 2017

DmystifieD;443345...Now a word about movement. You either throw 65+ or you don't. If you do AND you release the ball from 38-39 feet from plate said:
Nothing could be further from the truth. It sounds like you are repeating a lot of stuff you have heard from the stands during rec league. I sincerely hope you are not actually training or somehow influencing young pitchers.

Illegal Pitch?

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