I find it hard to believe this is true about learning movement pitches.

How do I know a drop ball is slower?

My DD's main pitch was a drop ball. When she was in HS, we did a drill called "drop ball-fast ball". She throws a DB, then an FB, then a DB, then a FB, etc. The purpose of the drill was to be able to seamlessly transition between a FB and a DB.

The pitching tube we used had a speed gun. The gun registered every pitch. We did this once a week for 2 years. When she pitched in college, she was gunned all the time. Her drop was consistently 2-3 MPH slower than her FB.

This is the same thing as baseball. A baseball curve ball is a drop ball in softball. A baseball curve is consistently 2 to 3 MPH slower than the fastball.

I'm still trying to figure out how a pitcher using the exact same mechanics as a FB and getting the same speed as the FB is going to magically generate the additional spin to get the ball to break.

(When writing the post, I was checked out out Michelle Smith's DB video. OMG.)

Interesting. I have clocked a roll-over drop to be 3mph slower than a peel-drop.

A good article from ESPN on spin.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw0F1cdZ-AO3TU4ncAqAE7SJ&ampcf=1

sluggers said:

How do I know a drop ball is slower?

My DD's main pitch was a drop ball. When she was in HS, we did a drill called "drop ball-fast ball". She throws a DB, then an FB, then a DB, then a FB, etc. The purpose of the drill was to be able to seamlessly transition between a FB and a DB.

The pitching tube we used had a speed gun. The gun registered every pitch. We did this once a week for 2 years. When she pitched in college, she was gunned all the time. Her drop was consistently 2-3 MPH slower than her FB.

This is the same thing as baseball. A baseball curve ball is a drop ball in softball. A baseball curve is consistently 2 to 3 MPH slower than the fastball.

I'm still trying to figure out how a pitcher using the exact same mechanics as a FB and getting the same speed as the FB is going to magically generate the additional spin to get the ball to break.

(When writing the post, I was checked out out Michelle Smith's DB video. OMG.)

Click to expand...

Sluggers, There's more than one way to throw the drop and also the resulting speed varies from pitcher to pitcher. Things might be different for other pitchers than your DD. Ive seen different mechanics taught like the rollover drop, or the peel drop with stepping earlier and get weight forward drop or the other peel drop that's most simplest of the same mechanics of the fastball except releasing slightly earlier than you're fastball ( the one Bill Hillhouse teaches). See Bill's videos for reference to get a better explanation. Anyway, 12 to 6 spin is what you're trying to get, and the more spin the better. That's the point of the whole thread.



Anyway, when my DD throws her fastball/dropball the better snap she gets the better the spin. And when she hits the release point earlier, her velocity is faster and spin is better. When her release is late, we get less break or is flatter and is not as effective.


Also, the MLB curve ball is much more slower than the MLB fastball. I researched it, and according to the attached article, the MLB curveball is 14.2 MPH slower than the curveball . And the range varied from 20.4 MPH to 8.8MPH.

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2...ity-gap-between-offspeed-pitches-and-fastball


I though it was an absolute that most pitching coaches start teaching with the 12 to 6 fastball or sometimes called a dropball with an emphasis on getting the right spin. Am I wrong?

Softball scholar said:

Sluggers, There's more than one way to throw the drop and also the resulting speed varies from pitcher to pitcher. Things might be different for other pitchers than your DD. Ive seen different mechanics taught like the rollover drop, or the peel drop with stepping earlier and get weight forward drop or the other peel drop that's most simplest of the same mechanics of the fastball except releasing slightly earlier than you're fastball ( the one Bill Hillhouse teaches). See Bill's videos for reference to get a better explanation. Anyway, 12 to 6 spin is what you're trying to get, and the more spin the better. That's the point of the whole thread.



Anyway, when my DD throws her fastball/dropball the better snap she gets the better the spin. And when she hits the release point earlier, her velocity is faster and spin is better. When her release is late, we get less break or is flatter and is not as effective.


Also, the MLB curve ball is much more slower than the MLB fastball. I researched it, and according to the attached article, the MLB curveball is 14.2 MPH slower than the curveball . And the range varied from 20.4 MPH to 8.8MPH.

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2...ity-gap-between-offspeed-pitches-and-fastball


I though it was an absolute that most pitching coaches start teaching with the 12 to 6 fastball or sometimes called a dropball with an emphasis on getting the right spin. Am I wrong?

Click to expand...

I could be wrong but the baseball curveball is considerably slower because it requires a turn of the wrist to make the ball spin sideways. It breaks the kinetic chain of the arm whipping from elbow to fingers as is a fastball. The turn of the wrist slows the pitch by a long shot.

Bill

sluggers said:

How do I know a drop ball is slower?

My DD's main pitch was a drop ball. When she was in HS, we did a drill called "drop ball-fast ball". She throws a DB, then an FB, then a DB, then a FB, etc. The purpose of the drill was to be able to seamlessly transition between a FB and a DB.

The pitching tube we used had a speed gun. The gun registered every pitch. We did this once a week for 2 years. When she pitched in college, she was gunned all the time. Her drop was consistently 2-3 MPH slower than her FB.

This is the same thing as baseball. A baseball curve ball is a drop ball in softball. A baseball curve is consistently 2 to 3 MPH slower than the fastball.

I'm still trying to figure out how a pitcher using the exact same mechanics as a FB and getting the same speed as the FB is going to magically generate the additional spin to get the ball to break.

(When writing the post, I was checked out out Michelle Smith's DB video. OMG.)

Click to expand...

Ray

Admittedly, I have never thrown a "fastball" on purpose. I have thrown countless drops that didn't go down for one reason or another. But you might be buying into the fallacy that in order to create more "rpms" on the ball the hand must be pulled back and up, almost as if starting a lawnmower. Nothing could be further from the truth. What makes a ball drop is the opposite of that. A strong whip of the elbow which translates down through the wrist and fingers for no speed loss. Combining that with the right release point, to avoid an upward trajectory will make even an average "fastball" drop. 99% of the people reading this will probably say their DD's "fastball" has a drop to it. Yet they don't realize how it's happening. The magic happens when you stop "TRYING" too make it drop and whip it like you're throwing as hard as possible with the right release point. Many people believe these are 2 separate pitches when they, in fact, the same exact pitch. I would almost go so far as to say, a fastball may be slower than a drop (when thrown as I'm describing) because they are trying not to make it move... which I will never understand. But, be that as it may. I completely agree that a "turn over drop" is slower. But I still contend that if you watch the majority of people who throw a "turn over" they release it like a peel, THEN do the turn over part afterward when the ball has been released. This gives the illusion that they have turned it over but they haven't. I did say the MAJORITY, not all. And of course it's going to be slower because they are not providing the whipping follow through which is necessary to get maximum speed.

Bill

I'm seeing that right now with the younger DD...two different riseballs (you know the coach)...fastball speed has leveled for a while at about 61, but the riseballs have gotten VERY good. Even alternating pitches can be a wild ride at times. It will be fun to see after this year.

But you might be buying into the fallacy that in order to create more "rpms" on the ball the hand must be pulled back and up, almost as if starting a lawnmower.

Click to expand...

Do you think I'm Michelle Smith?

Many people believe these are 2 separate pitches when they, in fact, the same exact pitch.

Click to expand...

Bill, you are dead wrong.

These are three of the finest female pitchers in the history of the game, and they are doing something a whole different than simply throwing a fastball. In all three they are keeping their hand pointing down after release. Note how the throwing shoulder comes forward after release. All this is done to maximize the spin on the ball.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/Nmjj1qUHcJO67eO2Du" width="480" height="320" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/Nmjj1qUHcJO67eO2Du">via GIPHY</a></p>

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/nmnFOlaVz4upmw7jEZ" width="480" height="269" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/nmnFOlaVz4upmw7jEZ">via GIPHY</a></p>

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/553ZGbuVaMFqEM7hh2" width="480" height="320" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/553ZGbuVaMFqEM7hh2">via GIPHY</a></p>

I still see the ball being released before that hand turn over. All that hand turn and shoulder turn seem overkill and unnecessary.

All I can tell you is, you are going by what you see others doing. I throw mine by what I do/did myself. And when my drop didn't go down, I fixed it by whipping my elbow more and creating more spin that way so it didn't happen again.

BTW, no I don't think you're Michele Smith. She knows more than ALL of us, even when she doesn't. LOL

Bill

Hillhouse said:

I still see the ball being released before that hand turn over. All that hand turn and shoulder turn seem overkill and unnecessary.

All I can tell you is, you are going by what you see others doing. I throw mine by what I do/did myself. And when my drop didn't go down, I fixed it by whipping my elbow more and creating more spin that way so it didn't happen again.

BTW, no I don't think you're Michele Smith. She knows more than ALL of us, even when she doesn't. LOL

Bill

Click to expand...

Yes, we've gone through this multiple times ... the turn-over drop is simply a peel-drop, albeit 3mph slower ... and slower allows for gravity to do its thing ... and hence the additional looping/dropping.

As Mike White would say ... why intentionally throw your drop slower?