Knuckle changeup

Can you explain that more?


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my DD changed to a knuckle this year and is really liking it. She is throwing her FB 53-54 and her knuckle is 43. The knuckle seems to have a drop spin a little tilted like 11/5 and tends to want to tail out I'd say . . . but maybe that is more that she just throws it low and outside. She loves it other than that she has to keep her nails short or it tears her pointer finger nail when she throws it. Ken B got to see it last weekend and can attest to whether he thinks it'll fool anyone. Seems like she had a new change every year and after a year she never loved any of them and this one has been an easy transition that she really likes.

DD’s circle change has movement to it with the spin. Makes it very deceptive and it is slow. She throws it low and if they swing at it, they look silly. The knuckle is definitely to compliment it, not replace it.


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What will be more effective at a high level?

A) An off speed pitch thrown with a spin rate and spin axis that is exactly like one of your primary pitches.

B) An off speed pitch thrown with a spin rate and spin axis that is unlike any of your primary pitches.

I️’m really not sure what the spin is on it but from what I️ could see it looked similar to her fastball which has a natural drop to it. So I’m guessing a 12/6 spin. I️ will pay more attention next time she is practicing it.


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My point is that for what is commonly called a "change up" to truly be effective it must have the same spin rate and spin axis of one of your primary pitches. The circle and knuckle change ups originated in baseball, not as a "change up" but as a teach. Then using the concepts of that teach you learn to throw one of your primary pitches at a lower, possibly much lower speed. You learn to "change speeds" of your primary pitches, not throw a unique pitch. The last thing you want is a pitch that has a different release, spin rate, and spin axis that you can only throw at batting practice speed.

Case in point is the "flip change". This is probably one of the worst pitches one can learn. Not just because it is difficult to master and easy to hang but because more often than it spins very different (6-12) than any of your other pitches. Unless you have a legit riseball the hitter can recognize the spin, sit back and crush it. However, if you do have a legit (not bulletspin) riseball it works extremely well even if you hang it.

Regardless of what "change up" you are attempting to learn it better look like something else in your tool box. The last thing you want is a pitch that is a unicorn in a herd of zebras.

The #1 thing to focus on here is DECEPTION!!!!!
If the whole stadium can see a circle grip or a tucked finger, the element of surprise is lost.
Picking signs and grips is pretty common, so don't help them.
I teach my hitting students to study the pitchers hand, if she sees a circle grip or tucked finger, she knows to sit on a change up. This defeats the whole damn purpose of a change up!
Pitchers are trying to disrupt a hitters timing. If your backswing has a tucked finger, your point is moot

coach james said:

Tucking a finger or creating a circle with the grip is very easy to spot on the backswing. I'd suggest maintaining the DB/FB grip and apply the Pauly crook and Cat paw meathod. This way it's more deceptive.

Click to expand...

What he said. ^^^^^^^^

Dd was taught to hide her grip in the glove by Hill house but could the crook and cat paw method be explained more.


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While I appreciate the "hide the grip" thinking the number of hitters (and coaches) that can pick a pitch based on grip and do something with that information is astronomically small. At the highest level of D1 this comes into play but for the other 99% of faspitch players it is irrelevant. I can understand teaching best practices though but it's not something that I would dwell on. Most pitchers have other (easier) "tells" besides grip when it comes to picking pitches.

I would focus more on riseball's reasoning with regards to flight path, spin rate, and spin axis. When you can't tell what pitch it is in the first "X" feet as a hitter you are in trouble.