Another HE Confrontation and Interesting Result

My daughter has been pitching (consistently) for 6 months now. She has natural IR and BI--didn't have to teach her much in that regard.

This week was her 4th lesson with an experienced pitching coach. Things have been going well. The rule set from the beginning was that the catcher (usually bucket mom or dad) does not interfere with the lesson/workout. Cool. I got it.

Today the coach was asking my DD to start finishing with HE. . . Gasp!

"Crap. . .I gotta do something. . . "

I calmly walked to the rubber and calmly but emphatically stated, "I don't want her finishing with a high elbow."

Okay. . .in retrospect, I probably didn't use the most diplomatic, kindest, or warm-fuzzy voice or body language. Shoot, I've never had to confront an issue like this before and I'm really bad at having to do something for the first time! I pretty much always screw it up.

A 3 or 4 minute. . .ummm. . . discussion. . . ensued whereby I explained why I thought it was wrong and asked her if she was familiar with the term hello elbow. She hadn't but proceeded to explain how long she's been doing this, she's coached this and that All-American, etc.

The conversation quickly defaulted to "I may not be the right pitching coach for you."

"And that may be" I responded. But we finished the workout.

After the workout, I very humbly told her I was not trying to meddle but that I knew enough to make me dangerous and there are some staples in mechanics I've been working with DD that I don't want to change.

She explained whatever ends up happening, she's trying to get DD to finish with structure.

A structured finish. I like that idea--just that HE isn't the structure I'd like.

Irony is, my DD confessed on the drive home that HE actually helped her control the ball better. It was true. She was much closer around the plate.

Can someone help with how I can work with DD and give her confidence in her control without HE?

Question 2: What is a good method or how does one teach a "structured finish"?

4KidsDad said:

A 3 or 4 minute. . .ummm. . . discussion. . . ensued whereby I explained why I thought it was wrong and asked her if she was familiar with the term hello elbow. She hadn't but proceeded to explain how long she's been doing this, she's coached this and that All-American, etc.

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How often do we hear this story, and hear of this exact response or attitude from the coach. Clearly, this coach doesn't think you could possibly know anything. You're just a dad. LOL! If you were to kindly suggest that she give DFP a try, odds are slim that she would. For me a valid are-you-qualified-to-meddle-with-my-daughter's-pitching-mechanics question would be, "Do you know who Rick Pauly is?" If they answer, "Yep," then ask, "You then know what internal rotation and brush interference are, correct?" Of course at this point you will be seen as a smug ba**ar*.

My DD's new travel team has a pitching coach coming in to help...same story...the first thing he wanted to do was have her coming through the arm circle palm down and HE. I chatted with him after and tried to explain what and why we were using I/R. He looked at me like I was an idiot, so I realized there is no point in trying to convince this fellow otherwise. I spoke to the head coach and let him know we are working with another coach and didnt want to change what we were doing to which he agreed. Whether DD gets to pitch or not once the season starts...who knows.

Doug Romrell said:

How often do we hear this story, and hear of this exact response or attitude from the coach. Clearly, this coach doesn't think you could possibly know anything. You're just a dad. LOL! If you were to kindly suggest that she give DFP a try, odds are slim that she would. For me a valid are-you-qualified-to-meddle-with-my-daughter's-pitching-mechanics question would be, "Do you know who Rick Pauly is?" If they answer, "Yep," then ask, "You then know what internal rotation and brush interference are, correct?" Of course at this point you will be seen as a smug ba**ar*.

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jdavitsky said:

My DD's new travel team has a pitching coach coming in to help...same story...the first thing he wanted to do was have her coming through the arm circle palm down and HE. I chatted with him after and tried to explain what and why we were using I/R. He looked at me like I was an idiot, so I realized there is no point in trying to convince this fellow otherwise. I spoke to the head coach and let him know we are working with another coach and didnt want to change what we were doing to which he agreed. Whether DD gets to pitch or not once the season starts...who knows.

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Oh, I'm sure he did see you as an idiot. Any non-curious "pitching coach" who is unfamiliar with I/R (term of actual action) wonders where the heII you come up with such nonsense. You couldn't possibly know what you are talking about. If that pitching coach is the coach's buddy, which is probably the case, you'll have to deal with less pitching time.

The bottom line is this..... You're completely screwed if you're talking about HS ball. If you're talking travel team, you should be able to find a team that is more open to your DD having her own pitching coach.

DD is 12 playing on a travel team. That said, it doesnt work the same way up in Ontario...you need to commit to a team in Sept for the following season so we are stuck were we are.

At any rate, we will just keep working away at it. DD has always had to work hard to earn her time so why would this year be any different LOL.

Doug Romrell said:

The bottom line is this..... You're completely screwed if you're talking about HS ball. If you're talking travel team, you should be able to find a team that is more open to your DD having her own pitching coach.

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All too familiar with this scenario....are these coaches just not paying attention to what is happening in the circle these days?

4KidsDad said:

Can someone help with how I can work with DD and give her confidence in her control without HE?

Question 2: What is a good method or how does one teach a "structured finish"?

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I think an instructor teaching HE is more times than not gonna try to change the 9:00 through 3:00 to a bowling type action where wrist-flip drills are used in the warm-up.
Regarding the control.... She needs to realize that over the long-run she will throw with more velocity if she stays away from the bowling type release action.

Doug Romrell said:

I think an instructor teaching HE is more times than not gonna try to change the 9:00 through 3:00 to a bowling type action where wrist-flip drills are used in the warm-up.
Regarding the control.... She needs to realize that over the long-run she will throw with more velocity if she stays away from the bowling type release action.

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Well. . .as I mentioned originally, DD has natural IR and BI. I don't think the PC is trying to change those mechanics; she's just wanting my DD to finish with HE. Maybe these are one and the same thing.

In my view, just asking to "finish" HE (rather than promote a bowling action) is equally as harmful because forcing your arm to HE rather than let it do what it needs to do after whipping ultimately takes away from the whipping.

Although. . . I guess we've seen hi-level pitcher's videos that actually throw with IR and BI but still force the HE 'cuz it looks good. Maybe I shouldn't get so offended by the HE as long as DD is still IR'ing and BI'ing. . . ?

Doug Romrell said:

How often do we hear this story, and hear of this exact response or attitude from the coach. Clearly, this coach doesn't think you could possibly know anything. You're just a dad. LOL! If you were to kindly suggest that she give DFP a try, odds are slim that she would. For me a valid are-you-qualified-to-meddle-with-my-daughter's-pitching-mechanics question would be, "Do you know who Rick Pauly is?" If they answer, "Yep," then ask, "You then know what internal rotation and brush interference are, correct?" Of course at this point you will be seen as a smug ba**ar*.

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To play devil's advocate, why would you want to stay with a pitching coach who you think is teaching incorrect fundamentals? You hire a pitching coach for their expertise, so why stick with them if you disagree with what they are teaching? If you (directed to the general audience, not Doug specifically) were a pitching coach (or any other kind of instructor/coach/teacher), you would be completely insulted if someone hired you and then said "You're teaching wrong. Look at this website for the right way to do it." Very few people can honestly say they would take the time to really look at the website and come back and say "I was wrong. I'll teach it your way."

dbronstein said:

To play devil's advocate, why would you want to stay with a pitching coach who you think is teaching incorrect fundamentals?
You hire a pitching coach for their expertise, so why stick with them if you disagree with what they are teaching?

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Yup. Good question. This is the first sour note after 4 sessions. Spidey senses are tingling but I'm willing to continue for at least 1 or 2 more.

If you (directed to the general audience, not Doug specifically) were a pitching coach (or any other kind of instructor/coach/teacher), you would be completely insulted if someone hired you and then said "You're teaching wrong.

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I'm sure that's exactly what the PC is thinking about this evening and I may get an email saying "Sorry. . . just can't work with you any more."

Look at this website for the right way to do it." Very few people can honestly say they would take the time to really look at the website and come back and say "I was wrong. I'll teach it your way."

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I think I read somewhere that actually happened. . .once? Maybe twice.