Athletic posture while coiling

jryan15 · Apr 11, 2018

I'm still seeking true root cause of the quad dom. issue. To me, these are the areas most likely to be the cause:

1. Genetic
Has a very strong genetic link in my house, me and the oldest share a lot of characteristics and happen to both be quad dom., my youngest is much like her mom, and both are glutes dom. This would also help support why so often kids of athletes are generally very athletic as well. If it is genetic, I am sure that there is an underlying reason (like #3 below).

2. Limited range of motion
I lead away from this for a couple reasons. The first being that my DD is about the bendiest kid I seen... The second reason is that DD has been specifically checked out by three physical therapists and the only thing one of them observed was low ROM in her ankles (almost a grand later, no improvement, but her ankles are really mobile now,

). I want to note, that among the PT experts I've discussed this issue with, almost all of them are resigned to this camp as the root cause. I've just collected too much empirical evidence to the contrary to even entertain it further. We've invested too many years doing exactly what the experts prescribed to give it another shot. It would take a heck of a sales pitch to try it again.

3. Too high dexterity
This might very well be the culprit and could also have linkage to genetics. Again DD is bendy and has a high Beighton score for hyper-mobility. Of the kids I've observed with this problem, most tend to be somewhat "bendy" in nature, but I could probably study this more precisely. If this is a significant characteristic, the next goal would be to try and figure out what specifically is the cause.

Back to MB's post, I do think that some knee injuries are related to kids with a similar issue. My daughter has a lot of knee valgus, and I do feel that there could be some level of correlation between knee valgus and quad dominance. Not sure I'm resigned to study the topic in this depth though. Maybe after the kids are done with softball.

FWIW Chong has done an excellent job of correlating low/common ankle sprains to quad dominant athletes. Low ankle sprains are very common in armature athletics, but we don't see them all that much in college/pro athletics. He has a couple great videos further supporting this claim.

jryan15 · Apr 11, 2018

DRDRODD said:
So right now for me the question that I want to try and find out is if people are one or the other because of mobility.

Good question. As I discuss above, almost all the experts are sitting in this camp, but I'd bet a weeks pay that they are ALL wrong. My kid is just too freaking bendy. In fact several years ago I had a post where I go into great detail about her bendiness and how it was hurting her arm when throwing. Austin Wasserman posted into the thread and we had a lot of offline conversation. He was one of first experts to start looking into DD's movement mechanics, but I digress. TBH I'd even double down on that same bet and go so far as to say that kids with lower joint mobility are even more likely to have good functioning glutes.

DRDRODD said:
Ever since the MLB started dumping a ton of money into Tommy John injuries there really wasn’t much research regarding the matter. They have come to the conclusion that heart of the problem starts with the lack of mobility of the joints, starting at the ankles and working upwards.

Very interesting observation. While I've not researched this particular topic much, I do have many opinions on over hand throwing ability.

The IR mechanic we love in softball pitching is similar to the IR/ER motion of the overhand throw. I think kids with high joint mobility tend to be poor performing in both pitching and over hand throwing because the increased mobility does not allow their shoulder joint to build as much tension in the joint before the arm snaps. I further have speculated that kids with really high mobility, are not physically able to truly snap the ball because their arms would have to go beyond 90 degrees (beyond parallel to the ground in OH throw) to max out tension in the shoulder joint. At 90 degrees, the geometry of the SCIP axis (scap-hip) gets really bad and doesn't support allowing the arm to exceed 90 degrees. As a result, those kids cannot achieve max stretch... Long story short, kids who arms can ER 90 degrees without a lot of back arching (easy to test with kids), will almost all have to PUSH the ball to throw it... And PUSH = NO SNAP = SLOW......

Back to your comment on TJ surgery, I think it is plausible that most pitchers are by nature athletes with tight joints and therefore low joint mobility. With this logic, it is possible that the study mentioned above might be contaminated, especially if they are assuming a pitchers share a normal distribution of low/high joint mobility athletes.

PS Lots of 3rd basemen with wicked OH throwing speed tend to be short, stalky, athletic peeps with relatively low joint mobility.

D Up · Apr 12, 2018

jryan15 said:
It is somewhat common to see struggling hitters who have batting stances in which their posture is very upright. The knees are bent a little, but they have virtually no hip hinge. In fact this was something that my DD had struggled with for a very long time. A while ago, I had discovered that she tended to be very much quad dominant in her pitching mechanics (discussed here) and slowly I have begun to see how hip hinge and hip extension were almost non existent in her athletic movement patterns. Yes, her rear hip would eventually extend, but it was BEING extended, not DOING the extending and thus was not explosive.

I now see how hip extension via the glutes, is the primary propulsion/explosion agent in countless athletic movements from sprinting, jumping, throwing, pitching, hitting, etc. In order for one's hip to be explosive (again via the glutes), the hip must be initially hinged. If you are not hinged, your glutes aren't going to do much for you. The taller you stand, the more inefficient the glutes work and also they start to battle against tight hip flexors and further lose efficiency.

For those who see a hitter with this upright posture, I made the collage below to show how critical hip hinge for hitters. I compiled a ton of coiling postures from all the athletes that I found on the HI clips site (from the letters A-K). In every case, the high level hitters achieve a moderate to excellent amount of hip hinge. Even hitters who tend to stand tall like Cano and Braun have moderate hip hinge as they coil (I could use more recommendations to analyze).

Here are a few observations that I have in regard to coiling with an upright posture. I am open to and would appreciate other view points on this as this isn’t something that get much press.

Coiling with upright posture:

1. A tall posture into coil does not have much hip hinge (hip hinge being the angle between the rear femur and the upper torso)
2. A tall posture when coiling tends to pull the upper torso away from the plate (this is noticeable at the back shoulder peeling off the plate)
3. Tall posture seems to degrade coiling force. I observe that upright postures tend to result in a diagonal (upward and back/around) force as opposed to mostly around force. I notice this in the scap pull back. See the arrows that I’ve added to your DD’s photo above.
4. The high level swing requires a snappy rear hip, and a snappy rear hip is a result of the glute muscles interacting with the back (a one legged scap pullback will generate a hip response).
5. Rotation from the rear hip is critical. If you don't have a merry-go-round to go with your pin wheel, your pin wheel will have to supplement and will result in a barrel pull.
6. Glute muscles are leveraged when the hip is hinged. When the hip/femur are straight, the glute is not efficient at turning force into rotation.
7. The glute muscles (hip extenders) and the hip flexors are at odds with each other. When the hip is hinged deeply, the hip flexors are weak and this is a prime position to get full power from the glutes. However when the hip hinge is shallow (upright posture with femur/upper torso straight), the glutes are much weaker as they have to overcome tightness in the flexors.

The "tells". Here are some signs that there might be an issue:

- Is the upper torso mostly vertical when coiled?
- Is the belt line horizontal (might be bad) or is it tilted (buckle side tilted down) which is good?
- Is the athlete coiling too far back and losing sight of the pitcher?
- Does the athlete continue to struggle with pulling the hands around (maybe the hip isn't bringing them around)?

Sorry if all this sounds like jibberish. This is something that I have been studying a great deal. Key phrases for these issues are “quad dominance” and “glute activation”. This topic is becoming more popular online, but with regard to “fixes”, I’ve found a tremendous amount of bad information. We have spent (wasted!) years working on theories for improvement with marginal results. Only the “hyperarch” training has produced noticeable results.

I think this entire topic is generally overlooked for a couple of reasons. A-level (and beyond) athletes generally do not have these issues and therefore traditional training works well for them. B-level (and below) athletes tend to wash out of sports early mostly because traditional training is not effective for quad dominant people and thus the divide between them and the "athletes" grows significantly. It tends to come down to speed and studliness. Studs make the cut, but for non-studs, at least if you are fast coaches will make a spot for you. Sadly, if you are quad dominant, you are not fast and no level of traditional training will make you fast. Again, hyperarch training appears to be the only hope of resolving quad dominance.

If anyone is interested in learning more about hyperarch training, I have documented it in the link at the top of the page.

Long story short, here is my recommendation for people who suspect a posture issue:

1. Really compare your DD's coiled posture to the collage. Does she lack hip hinge?
2. Determine if your daughter tends to be "quad dominant". This test (link) seems to be decent. In general pay specific attention to how she changes levels. Does she use quads to lower or does she naturally hip hinge to get low? If she is quad dominant, seek HA training immediately.
3. Next hitting session, play around with really exaggerated hip hinge angles and see how it effects her coil and snappiness.

Note: For quad dominant people, "exaggerated" hip hinge tends to be low-to-moderate hip hinge for athletes, so you might need to also try "really exaggerated" hip hinge...

What do you mean hip hinge...is this the same as hip coil? HI mechanics require a hip coil...coil around the leg, This is do not agree with and I feel promotes a counter rotation.

Id like to know if this is one in the same...hip hing/ hip coil

D Up · Apr 12, 2018

Lotta jibbersih for two words....get sat!

RichK · Apr 12, 2018

This is all really good stuff. Loving it. Here's how I instruct this area (fwiw):

1. I tell hitters: you're standing on bird legs, knees not bent, posture unengaged, engines dead. Do they play basketball or volleyball? Would their coach let them play defense or dig a volleyball from such an unengaged stance? Push them over (very easily) out of their bird legs stance. Make fun of them a bit

2. I then show them a variety of ways to *activate* their body -- get athletic, get wider, pinch in, get sat, pre-coil, pre-stretch, here's how the hand load and move out tighten the key links -- coil, pull back, scap. Help them to see and feel to understand what I'm talking about.

3. Ask them...are you feeling something different than before? Yes. Try to push them over now. Can't. Their body is engaged, they are starting to load their engines. They feel stronger. This is attack mode. Tell them: it is a GREAT advantage if you can do all of this and feel this in your body BEFORE the pitch comes at you. Learn how to set up for success -- then see ball hit ball.

4. Finally, show them how to preset some of this, flow into some of it, and how to use it in their swing. Load. Resistance. Stretch. Get them to learn more and more about their body and their swing. Show them that how they move and execute their swings delivers different swing and hit results -- for instance, engage and drive the lower body and that will suck the barrel and change the swing path to more behind and through then down and to -- and watch how that turns a ground ball into a line drive into a fly ball off a tee). Repeat. Again and again.

The challenge is for the hitter (young hitter) to OWN all of this. I have hitters that come to me saying they aren't hitting well, I'll see they are back on their bird legs, and I can talk them into this more activated and engaged stance with a few words and adjustments. And then *all of a sudden* they'll start hitting better again. Then they go away and forget it all again.

Players need to have swag -- at the plate, on base, in the field. Look like an athlete, play like an athlete. Too often young players (girls) will be too self-conscious to play like they really mean it. When they are taught well what it's like to be a softball athlete, and then feel comfortable in their own skin, and then learn to really compete -- they are ready to take that big leap.

Laphoneman · Apr 12, 2018

Yes sir I was just saying there was a lot more to establishing power than focusing on glutes. You just keep focusing glutes " squeeze the walnut" if you need to I really do hope it works out for you.

DRDRODD · Apr 12, 2018

jryan15 said:
Good question. As I discuss above, almost all the experts are sitting in this camp, but I'd bet a weeks pay that they are ALL wrong. My kid is just too freaking bendy. In fact several years ago I had a post where I go into great detail about her bendiness and how it was hurting her arm when throwing. Austin Wasserman posted into the thread and we had a lot of offline conversation. He was one of first experts to start looking into DD's movement mechanics, but I digress. TBH I'd even double down on that same bet and go so far as to say that kids with lower joint mobility are even more likely to have good functioning glutes.

Very interesting observation. While I've not researched this particular topic much, I do have many opinions on over hand throwing ability.

The IR mechanic we love in softball pitching is similar to the IR/ER motion of the overhand throw. I think kids with high joint mobility tend to be poor performing in both pitching and over hand throwing because the increased mobility does not allow their shoulder joint to build as much tension in the joint before the arm snaps. I further have speculated that kids with really high mobility, are not physically able to truly snap the ball because their arms would have to go beyond 90 degrees (beyond parallel to the ground in OH throw) to max out tension in the shoulder joint. At 90 degrees, the geometry of the SCIP axis (scap-hip) gets really bad and doesn't support allowing the arm to exceed 90 degrees. As a result, those kids cannot achieve max stretch... Long story short, kids who arms can ER 90 degrees without a lot of back arching (easy to test with kids), will almost all have to PUSH the ball to throw it... And PUSH = NO SNAP = SLOW......

Back to your comment on TJ surgery, I think it is plausible that most pitchers are by nature athletes with tight joints and therefore low joint mobility. With this logic, it is possible that the study mentioned above might be contaminated, especially if they are assuming a pitchers share a normal distribution of low/high joint mobility athletes.

PS Lots of 3rd basemen with wicked OH throwing speed tend to be short, stalky, athletic peeps with relatively low joint mobility.

I believe the main argument for the study was that, restricted mobility would reduce the effectiveness of the kinetic chain. Forcing the player into unconditional mechanics and putting the burden on the elbow much like putting the strain on the knees when having poor hip/ankle mobility. I agree that a lot of 3rd basemen have cannons for an arm but they are not throwing 75+ per game either.

The place, that I bring my DD to for the mobility stuff also has a throwing program that they specialize in. I did not feel that it was worth the money to improve her throwing velo for softball sake. The program is mostly filled with baseball pitchers and they are all seeing very impressive gains. Probably the most impressive is a local D1 pitcher who has seen his velo jump from 86 to 97 mph in a few months. There is 1 young lady that I know of in the program that started with a velo of 67/68 and is now up to 76 mph. All that being said you cannot participate in the throwing program without also doing the mobility stuff, the reason being they say you will be putting yourself in harms way and the gains will be hard to come by.

I found it very interesting that the first time ever meeting the trainer at the facility, started telling me what my DD was having trouble with towards throwing & hitting just by looking at her mobility scores. The whole time he was talking, I was thinking to myself that he had a video camera set up in the cage we practice at.

tjintx · Apr 12, 2018

D Up said:
Lotta jibbersih for two words....get sat!

Not all "SATS" are created equal...

jryan15 · Apr 12, 2018

D Up said:
What do you mean hip hinge...is this the same as hip coil? HI mechanics require a hip coil...coil around the leg, This is do not agree with and I feel promotes a counter rotation.

Id like to know if this is one in the same...hip hing/ hip coil

No hip hinge and hip coil are totally different. Hip hinge is what normal peeps do everyday to pick stuff up or get down and ready in the field. For quad dominant peeps, instead of hip hinging, they tend to bend their knees and backs more and not have much quality hip hinge.

Rear hip coil is a twisting motion of the pelvis around the rear hip. Using your lower back and rear check, you pull the rear hip around (belly button toward catcher).

If you coil without hip hinge, yes, you will end up with a lot of counter-rotation (seeing kids make this mistake was the original purpose of this thread). However if you hip hinge and then coil, you will not have much counter rotation and will look like the pros above. Hip hinge + coil puts you in an excellent position for which pelvic tilt will free up the hip and allow it to drive your upper body around all the while effectively remaining coiled. This is one of the key concepts that Rich has been teaching.

jryan15 · Apr 12, 2018

D Up said:
Lotta jibbersih for two words....get sat!

You miss the point of this thread. For "A" athletes with a good natural glute response, it is simple... For a quad dominant kids if you don't teach quality hip hinge, your just going to get more knee bend and more bend in their lower vertebrae.

Athletic posture while coiling

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