Is there proof that closing hips before release can cause shoulder pain.

[actionpnh]

A high school sophmore pitcher has recently joined our high school team. This is still very early in the season and she is already mentioning shoulder pain. She admits that she has had issues in the past with soreness. I am a "stay open at least until release" advocate. I have very little experience with this type of motion. Is there proof or evidence that her closed-open-slamming the door closed pitching motion can be bad for her shoulder?

 

[actionpnh]

thx steve..... a philosophy war not my intention

Steve thx for your response and those links. I realized while asking this question that it could stir a debate and that is not my intention. I simply want to talk "mechanics and injury". Now, I want to make sure I have this correct. A pitcher is considered closed when her body, or for the most part her torso, is facing home plate. At least I always considered it this way. If this is correct, then one of the only apparent authorities in pitching biomechanics research, believes that rotating the hip back around so that the pelvic is facing the hitter at or near release is considered to be the safer of the two positions. Am I taking this all in correctly?

 

[sluggers]

Is there proof or evidence that her closed-open-slamming the door closed pitching motion can be bad for her shoulder?

IMHO, you should approach this problem from, "I want to make you a better pitcher." And then, show her how a good pitcher throws, and then work with her.

I have a nice frame-by-frame shot of Osterman throwing the ball you can use. There are also lots of videos available and pitch sequences you can use.

A pitcher is considered closed when her body, or for the most part her torso, is facing home plate

That is correct, except you left out the words "at release". After the pitch is thrown, some good pitchers do square up to the plate. It is the orientation of the hips at release that is important.

There is also an issue of "how open". Pitchers do close their hips somewhat prior to release. I've never seen even moderately accomplished female pitchers throw with the hips fully closed at release.

this is correct, then one of the only apparent authorities in pitching biomechanics research, believes that rotating the hip back around so that the pelvic is facing the hitter at or near release is considered to be the safer of the two positions

I read the articles Steve listed, and I didn't see this. Where are you getting this?

 

[shockcoach]

Here is an excerpt from Dr. Sherry Werner's studies.

The Importance of the Hips and Trunk in Fastpitch Pitching

Without a doubt, arm motion is important in the windmill pitch. And most of us agree that the legs play a big role in pitching. Very rarely, though, do you hear much about the part of the body connecting the legs and the arms – the trunk. If the forces used in pitching originate through the feet and legs, and are eventually imparted through the arm and hand to the ball, the trunk must be important too. Unless the forces generated at the ground are transferred properly through the trunk to the pitching arm, the pitching motion is inefficient.

During the stride, the swivel movement of the pivot foot allows the hips and trunk to open toward third base (for right handers). This, in turn, allows the arm to “windmill” more freely and puts the trunk in position so that as the hips close, they can contribute to ball speed. The muscles of the trunk are larger than those of the arms and legs, so it only makes sense to use these muscles to assist in propelling the ball. As the hips and trunk rotate to a closed position (squared with home plate), the throwing shoulder moves with the trunk. A pitcher who does not close her hips has to use shoulder muscles to move her arm toward the release point. For obvious reasons, it is more advantageous to use the trunk, which has more muscle mass, to move the arm.

Failure to close the hips also goes against a widely-accepted principle in biomechanics. Proximal to distal sequencing refers to a pattern of timing in human movement where the body part closest to the center of the body reaches its maximum speed, then the next closest body part reaches its maximum velocity, and so on until the body part furthest from the body’s center reaches its peak speed. In pitching, once the hips are open to third base (for right-handers) and begin to close, maximum hip rotation speed will occur before maximum shoulder rotation speed. Then, once peak shoulder speed is reached, elbow flexion velocity is maximized followed by peak wrist flexion speed.

This sequencing is thought to maximize joint coordination and, in pitching, it maximizes ball speed. If the hips are not rotated toward a closed position, proximal to distal sequencing begins at the shoulder, and the contribution from the trunk is minimized. Lack of coordination caused by not closing the hips also creates an inefficient flow of forces between the legs and throwing arm. Preliminary studies have shown that greater degrees of hip and trunk rotation are linked to less stress in the throwing arm. From a biomechanical point of view, this stands to reason. When the trunk closes toward home plate, the arm is moved toward the release point. If the trunk does not rotate, the arm is forced to move across the body against resistance. The shoulder joint of the throwing arm then has to endure extremely high loads, both before and after ball release. Just prior to ball release, when the arm is moving at maximum speed, it is important for the trunk to assist the arm. Otherwise, additional stretch and stress are placed on the shoulder. Likewise, after ball release it is important for the arm to move with the hips and trunk in order to dissipate the forces and energy generated during the pitch. It is my opinion that the shoulder cannot carry this burden alone without incurring damage over time. (Sherry L. Werner holds a Master of Science degree in biomechanics from Indiana University and her doctorate from Pennsylvania State University.)

Although failure to close the hips is a more common problem in pitching, closing the hips too early also creates unnecessary stress on the shoulder. Closing the hips prematurely decreases the trunk’s contribution to the pitch. Any time the trunk and arm are out of sync, efficiency of movement is compromised. In other words, both closing the hips too early and leaving the hips open put the burden on the shoulder to generate ball speed.

Another detrimental effect of not rotating the hips square to home plate is seen during the follow-through. When the hips close, the arm moves with the trunk. But if the hips remain open, the arm has to move forward and across the body, independent of the trunk. This causes unnecessary stretch and stress on the shoulder joint. Just prior to ball release, the arm is moving very fast. The forces and energy which produced these high movement speeds have to be dissipated once the ball is released. If the hips close and the arm moves with the trunk, this dissipation will be distributed to the trunk and arm. Failure to close the hips, however, puts the stress of energy dissipation on the arm. Closing the hips also tends to pull the pivot foot forward during the follow-through so that the pitcher is in a good position to field the ball.

Opening the hips and trunk occurs without much effort as the pivot foot turns outward and the stride foot moves forward. Closing the hips, however, requires a forceful contraction to trunk muscles. Although these pelvic, stomach, and back muscles which rotate the hips are large, they are usually weak, especially in females. Often times these muscles are overlooked. Strength training programs focus on the arm and, to a lesser extend, the legs. A strong arm and legs cannot overcome weak trunk muscles. You have heard the adage, “You’re only as strong as your weakest link”. The trunk is just that – an important link between the legs and the throwing arm.

Preliminary studies suggest that pitchers who use hip rotation see significantly less stress at the shoulder joint during the release and follow-through. Since this joint was not designed with windmill pitching in mind, using the legs, hips, and trunk to decrease the shoulder’s work is important.

 

[lhowser]

A high school sophmore pitcher has recently joined our high school team. This is still very early in the season and she is already mentioning shoulder pain.

Where is the shoulder pain? In the front, in the joint or in the shoulder blade area? From my experience this is relevant to the circle and shoulder/hip relationship.

 

[halskinner]

The Steadmand - Hawkins report to coaches is at Softball Pitching at the 1996 Olympic Games will tell you all the safest angles of the body for the safest mechanics to protect the female shoulder complex.

Does your pitcher throw with a straight and locked elbow? This can be a big factor in shoulder injuries.

 

[halskinner]

I have this injury. I am an example. Don't do it. I don't care what studies say.

Abstract studies prior to the big style change to 'open' have no relevance. Studiers can be biased and we know a lot more in even 10-15 years as more players play. This is one time where you don't want "20 years of experience."

In fact, if the hip pulls the shoulder and arm through, it is like skiing downhill on ice and too much for the joint to handle.

What the H - - - are you talking about" You SHOULD care what that report says because it says that the hips at 52-degrees is optimum for the safest mechanics! Just beccause it is now referred to as the 'closed' style doesnt mean that you close the hips all the way!

What 'Big style change'? A couple of videos come out promoting open mechanics and a bunch of old pitchers that used those mechanics come out and say it is the best or is the safest equates to a 'Big style change"?? HORSECRAP.

They are trying to push for open mechanics because that is what they used when they competed and that is all they know!. Hard to teach what you dont know. They are tring to get the ASA to allow what the ISC never enforces.

You might want to compare what the information teaches to what is in the ASA rulebook , what IS and IS not allowed.

 

[actionpnh]

To answer some of your questions, she complains of soreness in the front and rear of her shoulder blade. Front pain seems in deeper than that in the back. Hal, her elbow is a relaxed one with slight elbow bend. thx everyone for your responses and comments. This information will certainly get me started in the right direction. AS much as I would like to just take over this players pitching instruction. I first have to provide some hard facts and evidense to a not so knowledgable, know it all, bucket dad. Thx again everyone. Oh, and stop picking at each other. Steve, Hal, Screwball, sluggers and all the rest of you, have taught us wanna bees a ton. We all have opinions and ways to back them up. Thats what I love about DiscussFastpitch.com and those who play here.

 

[halskinner]

actionpnh,

I would look into the possibility of a strain and enflamed bicep ligamate. First thing I think of when there is pain in the front of the shoulder. Can sge fler her bicep muscle *make a Popeye muscle( without pain? Can she do that and does the bicep muscle twist slightly sideways when she does? If it does stop pitching until a Dr and physical therapist say its OK.

Hal

 

[Sparky Guy]

I first have to provide some hard facts and evidense to a not so knowledgable, know it all, bucket dad.

THE most dangerous daddy in the world!!!! The one who doesn't know how much he doesn't know.