What are your disagreements with Don and Epstein??
Softball Swing vs. Baseball Swing - 2
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Opinions are like belly buttons and everybody has one....some are in and some are out, so this would just open up a can of worms and it isn't worth defending what I would post. I will let someone that watched the exchange between the two at a NFCC clinic post on here.
I have been to the RVP site but do not have any of their material. With the aid of computers they have certainly analyzed the heck out of the MLB swing. Slaught seems like a great guy. I have no doubt he knows what he's talking about.
I think Candrea is a great coach, but I'm not sold on him as a hitting instructor. I'm just very thankful that he is on video saying something to the effect of "thanks to RVP software we can now confirm that the MLB and FP swings are similar".
I will use that clip the next time some coach trys to turn my daughter into a linear hitter.
I would be interested to know what Slaught and Epstein disagree about. No doubt it has less to do with the actual technique and more to do with how best to teach the technique. Probably one or the other doesn't like the other person's drills.
It sounds like Epsteins stuff is a little too simple for some people. IMO that's the genuis in his approach. It's easily transferable to a 12 year old.
The challenge with teaching the MLB swing, is that the more components of the swing you add the more that can go wrong prior to contact.
For instance some people criticize Epstein for having his students hold the bat on the side of their back shoulder when they do the drills and therefore the hitter doesn't learn proper scap loading. Ok, fair enough.
Now here's the reality. After about two years of working with Epstein's stuff, my daughter gets real comfortable with her swing and she starts to naturally scap load, meaning her back elbow starts to lift up and away from her back side rib cage when she weight shifts forward. So she no longer has it tucked in the Epstein slotted training position.
So what happens? One day I notice that when her hands were going back the bat head was dropping down. A really, really bad habit that took me at least a month to correct.
My point is sometimes more is less.
I do believe some movements in the MLB swing like scap loading, are movements that the body naturally wants to do and can easily be added later on when the player has the motor skills to keep the bat head angled correctly and has the ability to get the rear elbow slotted properly in time to hit the ball sqaure.
I think Candrea is a great coach, but I'm not sold on him as a hitting instructor. I'm just very thankful that he is on video saying something to the effect of "thanks to RVP software we can now confirm that the MLB and FP swings are similar".
I will use that clip the next time some coach trys to turn my daughter into a linear hitter.
I would be interested to know what Slaught and Epstein disagree about. No doubt it has less to do with the actual technique and more to do with how best to teach the technique. Probably one or the other doesn't like the other person's drills.
It sounds like Epsteins stuff is a little too simple for some people. IMO that's the genuis in his approach. It's easily transferable to a 12 year old.
The challenge with teaching the MLB swing, is that the more components of the swing you add the more that can go wrong prior to contact.
For instance some people criticize Epstein for having his students hold the bat on the side of their back shoulder when they do the drills and therefore the hitter doesn't learn proper scap loading. Ok, fair enough.
Now here's the reality. After about two years of working with Epstein's stuff, my daughter gets real comfortable with her swing and she starts to naturally scap load, meaning her back elbow starts to lift up and away from her back side rib cage when she weight shifts forward. So she no longer has it tucked in the Epstein slotted training position.
So what happens? One day I notice that when her hands were going back the bat head was dropping down. A really, really bad habit that took me at least a month to correct.
My point is sometimes more is less.
I do believe some movements in the MLB swing like scap loading, are movements that the body naturally wants to do and can easily be added later on when the player has the motor skills to keep the bat head angled correctly and has the ability to get the rear elbow slotted properly in time to hit the ball sqaure.
I don't think Don and Mike think they are teaching the same thing. I prefer Don's approach to Mike's. Now if Don would just dump the rock skipping cue. IMO, Don's understanding is a bit two dimensional but he has advanced the sport far due to his influence on Mike and Sue.
And yes, if you are trying to get a bunch of kids quickly to a certain level, Mike may be your man.
And yes, if you are trying to get a bunch of kids quickly to a certain level, Mike may be your man.
Well-
I have had excellent results with Epstein.
My belief is that the body comes preprogrammed for a limited number of ways of doing things. In the case of hitting, the basic typical patterns you see are variations of:
1- disconnected arm swing
2- "PCR"
3- MLB.
I think Slaught and Epstein are both teaching the same thing/MLB pattern, evenm if they think they are different from one another. They are just emphasizing different aspects of the same pattern, not describing diferent patterns.
To see what Slaught teaches, see all the visdeos here by candrea and Enquist, get'em while they are hot:
There is BIG trouble when you mix and match patterns which is why I beleive Mark finds the Epstein pattern limiting. Mark is trying to apply PCR principles to the MLB swing which prevent it from working by forcing a hybrid swing with too many compensations.
For example, if you think shoulders turn and scap swing around the torso as Nyman describes, this will ruin the MLB pattern which requires tilt of the scaps.
If you think scaps turn arms and hands rather than hands starting first and controlling how arms and scaps work, this will mess up the MLB pattern.
Epstein minus any attempts to enhance it with incompatible "PCR" principles will fail.
I have had excellent results with Epstein.
My belief is that the body comes preprogrammed for a limited number of ways of doing things. In the case of hitting, the basic typical patterns you see are variations of:
1- disconnected arm swing
2- "PCR"
3- MLB.
I think Slaught and Epstein are both teaching the same thing/MLB pattern, evenm if they think they are different from one another. They are just emphasizing different aspects of the same pattern, not describing diferent patterns.
To see what Slaught teaches, see all the visdeos here by candrea and Enquist, get'em while they are hot:
There is BIG trouble when you mix and match patterns which is why I beleive Mark finds the Epstein pattern limiting. Mark is trying to apply PCR principles to the MLB swing which prevent it from working by forcing a hybrid swing with too many compensations.
For example, if you think shoulders turn and scap swing around the torso as Nyman describes, this will ruin the MLB pattern which requires tilt of the scaps.
If you think scaps turn arms and hands rather than hands starting first and controlling how arms and scaps work, this will mess up the MLB pattern.
Epstein minus any attempts to enhance it with incompatible "PCR" principles will fail.
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Well -
Here is an example of how to "reconcile" the apparent differencesbetween Epstein and Slaught.
One of the asreas of disagreement in their model is how the back elbow works/slots.
Slaught's sidearm cue gives mark amd PCR types big heartburn.
Epstein likes to slot the back elbow, but also likes to make sure you maintain the space between the elbows/move the elbows (front and back) in a reciprocal fashion.
Candrea explains the Slaught belief that rotation starts with the back elbow and goes into detail about how the elbow "leads" but does not get too far ahead ("drag") or stay too far behind ("PUSH") the hip.
Now you can puit these both together by understanding that the back elbow starts down toward the "slot" (not going past the slot to the bellybutton forcing drag) as you "wind the rubberband as the weight goes forward with the front foot open at toe touch (as Eppsetin says) then when you DROP (the front heel) and TILT (the shoulders), AT the same time you rotate the elbows, maintaining the spread between the as the forearms twist and the bat handle is torqued by the hands without unhinging the lead wrist.
Same arm/scap action, just different points of emphasis.
Here is an example of how to "reconcile" the apparent differencesbetween Epstein and Slaught.
One of the asreas of disagreement in their model is how the back elbow works/slots.
Slaught's sidearm cue gives mark amd PCR types big heartburn.
Epstein likes to slot the back elbow, but also likes to make sure you maintain the space between the elbows/move the elbows (front and back) in a reciprocal fashion.
Candrea explains the Slaught belief that rotation starts with the back elbow and goes into detail about how the elbow "leads" but does not get too far ahead ("drag") or stay too far behind ("PUSH") the hip.
Now you can puit these both together by understanding that the back elbow starts down toward the "slot" (not going past the slot to the bellybutton forcing drag) as you "wind the rubberband as the weight goes forward with the front foot open at toe touch (as Eppsetin says) then when you DROP (the front heel) and TILT (the shoulders), AT the same time you rotate the elbows, maintaining the spread between the as the forearms twist and the bat handle is torqued by the hands without unhinging the lead wrist.
Same arm/scap action, just different points of emphasis.
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We have a lot of FP hitters in my area who have been taught a swing that kind of reminds me of a golf swing. Have any of you guys seen FP hitters using this type of swing?
If so what are your thoughts on it.
If so what are your thoughts on it.
Yes Well-
Many use a golf type swing in the sense of taking a backswing as a way of creating upper body resistance to turning open with the hips. This resistance is necessary to create coil/separation to power the swing as well as keep the hands back. The trouble with the golf swing is that it is too long and not adjustable. It involves what is sometimes called "excessive counter-rotation" which means a twist of the spine backward/too much/too early "x-factor".
A more minor form of this inefficient resistance creation is "bat wrapping".
THe high level MLB type pattern uses a tip and rip upper body pattern which controls the swing with early batspeed and late adjustment by using handle torque in a steeper plane (than hips turn body in) to resist.
Many use a golf type swing in the sense of taking a backswing as a way of creating upper body resistance to turning open with the hips. This resistance is necessary to create coil/separation to power the swing as well as keep the hands back. The trouble with the golf swing is that it is too long and not adjustable. It involves what is sometimes called "excessive counter-rotation" which means a twist of the spine backward/too much/too early "x-factor".
A more minor form of this inefficient resistance creation is "bat wrapping".
THe high level MLB type pattern uses a tip and rip upper body pattern which controls the swing with early batspeed and late adjustment by using handle torque in a steeper plane (than hips turn body in) to resist.
The golf type swing I'm thinking of isn't about the back stroke (there is no back stroke). It's more about the finish. The hitter finishes with their back foot much closer to the front foot and there is little to no weight on the back foot when they finish their swing. A lot like how a golfer finishes.
Also prior to the swing the hands are held above the shoulders and both elbows are angled down. The swing looks to me like a hands to the ball type swing.
All the girls who use this type swing almost always hit grounders or low liners (that barely make it out of the infield) to the opposite field. They're almost always an easy out. Several people in my area teach this swing and I'm not sure why.
Also prior to the swing the hands are held above the shoulders and both elbows are angled down. The swing looks to me like a hands to the ball type swing.
All the girls who use this type swing almost always hit grounders or low liners (that barely make it out of the infield) to the opposite field. They're almost always an easy out. Several people in my area teach this swing and I'm not sure why.
