Pitching instructor won’t allow dd coach to attend lesson

[MadBandit22]

With due respect to everyone, this isn't about me. And I had no problem with MadBandit's kid preferring a female coach. I'm just a little taken aback by the "anti male" attitude she seems to have, considering the role that men do have in the fastpitch world. You're right, they aren't on ESPN like the women. But who's head coach of the Olympic team? Ken Eriksen, former US Men's National team player. Who throws batting for the Women's National team? That's right, male pitchers who can do considerably more with the ball than most. This of course helps train the hitters for anything. What is your DD going to do if her best college offer is with a male coach? Choose a DIII school instead of a DI because of the coach's gender?

How can you possibly say the highlighted portion: I just prefer watching watching women play when you've also claimed you've never even seen a men's game? And you don't care about it. Isn't that like a kid saying he doesn't like what's for dinner having never tried it?

MadBandit, it may sound like I'm attacking... I assure you I'm not. Emails, texts and posts can sometimes give off an unintended "tone" that gets misunderstood. I'm truly just trying to understand. It sounds like your thoughts and feelings about men and men's softball have been transferred to your DD. And that's ok, we teach our kids our thoughts on politics, religion, etc. and they grow up believing the same as we do (usually). But I am truly curious of the genesis of your distaste for men in the softball world.

Bill

She actually prefers a male HC because in our experience male coaches push the girls more. Females tend to try and be more friendly and just not as productive especially younger female coaches.
I like the dynamic of having both male & female coaches to cover all the bases.
I prefer male HC and female assistants. HC takes care of X’s & O’s and AC’s deal with personalities and specific skills.
Not that a female can’t take care of X’s & O’s they most certainly can but just my preference.
Given a choice of watching quality college Fastpitch or MLB I would watch FP every time. Probably due to still trying to learn and pickup nuances of the game I can pass along.
Keep in mind Bill my twin DD’s are 14. They usually don’t give a reason why they like or dislike something. It just is.

 

[Hillhouse]

She actually prefers a male HC because in our experience male coaches push the girls more. Females tend to try and be more friendly and just not as productive especially younger female coaches.
I like the dynamic of having both male & female coaches to cover all the bases.
I prefer male HC and female assistants. HC takes care of X’s & O’s and AC’s deal with personalities and specific skills.
Not that a female can’t take care of X’s & O’s they most certainly can but just my preference.
Given a choice of watching quality college Fastpitch or MLB I would watch FP every time. Probably due to still trying to learn and pickup nuances of the game I can pass along.
Keep in mind Bill my twin DD’s are 14. They usually don’t give a reason why they like or dislike something. It just is.

So, by what you said earlier, that your kid is "show me" type kid I'm guessing she'd be blown away if she saw a man actually demonstrate? Or probably in awe if she knew most of the all time greats like Cat Osterman have said publicly that her pitching changed and she wouldn't have been the pitcher she became without the help of world class men's pitcher Bobby Smith in Houston? I can absolutely understand your kid saying "show me" and watching a guy, who's never pitched before, stammer and stutter and not be able to demo his words. There are a lot of visual learners out there, even if it's just for credibility's sake.

I'm curious, do you feel this way about hitting too? Are your hitting coaches male or female? If they are male, how do you justify that when that guy has never stood in the box and faced a riseball himself? How can he articulate how to hit it, what to look for, etc? Is the concept not the same that you want FASTPITCH credibility, whether it's pitching or hitting by someone who's done it?

Listen I'm not trying to change your mind, you're obviously set in stone with your opinion. I am just very curious by your position.

And I don't disagree, a good FP game vs. MLB game is a no brainer. And, pardon me for sounding sexist, but a World Class men's fastpitch game will make a UCLA-Oklahoma game look like slow motion. I promise you.

Bill

 

[Rick M]

Just a quick thought on the male vs female coach thing: DD played her first four years of softball under male coaches, all of them dads. She's played the last two years under all-female coaching staffs and has a female pitching coach and hitting coach. She has said, in no uncertain terms, that she never wants to play for male coaches again. She's got no compelling reasons -- she's 13 -- but she feels most comfortable in her all-girl world. She has, incidentally, done clinics with Denny Tincher, Austin Wasserman, and Jay Weaver, all of which she enjoyed. But when it comes to working weekly with a PI or multiple times a week with a team coach, she just has a better rapport with women. All of the softball coaches in our school district are women as well.

To address the OP, I can see the perspective of the PI in this instance. If the HC is getting into such granular detail as rear foot placement, they clearly think that they have a good understanding of pitching mechanics and would not be likely to change their opinions based on one conversation with the pitching instructor.

I am puzzled by the PI's reluctance to see his students more frequently. But I also find it silly to believe that sitting in on one lesson is going to give the HC any kind of fundamentals to reinforce during practice or (heaven forbid) games. BT3100 has it right -- a good PI will reinforce good mechanics and the HC can manage a good game -- but there's one girl in the circle and she's there holding the ball all by herself. DD has confessed to not hearing a single word that her coach said to her when there was a mound visit. Sorry, coaches

 

[FP26]

I’m wondering if this is common or if I am making an unreasonable request?

Here is the back story: my dd used to pitch when she was in 10u and 12u. She stopped because she just didn’t have the emotional capacity to handle the pressure that position was placing on her. Fast forward 2.5 years and now she 14 playing 16u and has grown these incredibly long legs and is just tall and strong. We decided to try pitching again because some team dynamics dictated she at least try and lo and behold, it is like she never stopped. She has better mechanic now than she ever did when she was younger.

Anyway, to begin this exploration we scheduled an appointment with a local Tincher certified pitching instructor. The first lesson went well and was basically just to get her comfortable with throwing again and to see what the PI thought of her potential. The PI does do a few things different than she ever learned in the past, like keep the back foot flat on the floor and don’t bend forward before push off. Then we go to practice at her team facility and her coach shows up to practice with her and he is questioning her on why she was doing things the way this PI instructed her. He went on to having her raise her back foot, transfer weight and bend a bit at the waist before push off.

So I message the PI to set up another lesson because everyone is very positive about her potential and she honestly looks good. I tell the PI I want her coach to attend because of the small differences in lower body philosophies and how I want everyone on the same page especially since her TB coach will be working with her the most. He messages back and says he can’t allow the coach at the lesson.

So back to my original question after this long story, is that normal?

Personally I have no issue with a parent or coach attending a hitting lesson when I am working with a student. In the case of a coach, I simply ask them to hold any questions until after the lesson is over because that time is dedicated to the student. I would be glad to talk to the coach in greater detail after the lesson is over. Unfortunately, I have witnessed some of these coaches and parents incorrectly quoting me to some other people. For me it is not a money generating business so I'm not too concerned about it. But I can see it being a negative for those that do this for a living.

As an example, DD's pitching coach has dozens of students that he works with. DD has been working with him for approximately 6 years. Approximately 3 years ago we learned that one of the students we were familiar with was no longer getting instruction from him. Instead, her dad started his own business in their area and was claiming that he was teaching the same thing this instructor was teaching. After watching a few of this guy's students, it wasn't hard to tell that this was not the case. DD's instructor was quite upset. Not because this other guy was teaching, but because he was teaching something different but claiming it was the same.

 

[BradyC87]

Didn't say parents needed to be outsiders.
But too may voices in a kids ear doesn't help. Having a head coach come to a pitching lesson IMO is distracting and in many cases counter productive.
JMO

I wouldn't agree with it always being a distraction. I have assisted coach the last few years and my DD does not pitch so I have spoken to the parents of our pitchers the last couple years about mechanics their girls are working on and so on.

It would be extremely helpful if I could attend a pitching lesson or two just to see what the PI is working on with our pitchers just so I can know what to tell them if they are off during a game or something. Unfortunately, timing hasn't worked out to be able to attend any of them yet but believe me, as someone who knows nothing outside of what I have seen in videos I'm not going to try and change what our pitchers are working on with their PI's.

 

[MadBandit22]

So, by what you said earlier, that your kid is "show me" type kid I'm guessing she'd be blown away if she saw a man actually demonstrate? Or probably in awe if she knew most of the all time greats like Cat Osterman have said publicly that her pitching changed and she wouldn't have been the pitcher she became without the help of world class men's pitcher Bobby Smith in Houston? I can absolutely understand your kid saying "show me" and watching a guy, who's never pitched before, stammer and stutter and not be able to demo his words. There are a lot of visual learners out there, even if it's just for credibility's sake.

I'm curious, do you feel this way about hitting too? Are your hitting coaches male or female? If they are male, how do you justify that when that guy has never stood in the box and faced a riseball himself? How can he articulate how to hit it, what to look for, etc? Is the concept not the same that you want FASTPITCH credibility, whether it's pitching or hitting by someone who's done it?

Listen I'm not trying to change your mind, you're obviously set in stone with your opinion. I am just very curious by your position.

And I don't disagree, a good FP game vs. MLB game is a no brainer. And, pardon me for sounding sexist, but a World Class men's fastpitch game will make a UCLA-Oklahoma game look like slow motion. I promise you.

Bill

I’m pretty sure if she was exposed to male Fastpitch pitchers she would be more open to the idea of men can pitch & teach the windmill technique as well as the ladies.
As far as hitting I have no preference. I think hitting is more universal than pitching. Some will say hitting is identical in both sports. I say it’s very similar
The windmilll technique IMO is the hardest skill to learn in Fastpitch and specific to the sport.
Hitting is performed in very similar fashion in both sports. Generally no leg kick, less kick, shorter stride in softball. I think the upper body for the most part is standard to both sports.
You have a guy standing on an elevated mound 60’ 6” away throwing overhand down hill vs a person standing 43’ away on a flat service coming right at you. Not to mention the size and color of the balls being used.
There has to be subtle differences to adjust to different distances, speed, and angles.
My intention is not to belittle or minimize the significance of men playing Fastpitch here Bill or being good instructors.
I’m speaking to my experience and others in my area.
Never been exposed to men’s Fastpitch and don’t really see a reason to be.
Given the choice I would play baseball over softball. Fastpitch softball isn’t part of the narrative growing up in the northeast.
You have boys sports and girls sports in school growing up. Certain sports are offered to each gender.
There are unisex/crossover sports like basketball, volleyball, soccer where both genders field a team.
Girls don’t play football, baseball, wrestle, because they have alternative sports to participate in. (In most cases)
How many High Schools field a boys Fastpitch team? I would guess not many if any at all.
I think it’s just something we’re conditioned to understand in our youth that extents to adulthood. Boys play baseball, girls play softball, and when you get older you play slowpitch. That’s the narrative I was raised with.

 

[Hillhouse]

Yea, I just don't get it. If the HC attends to listen and learn, where is the issue? If he/she is constantly challenging the PC and disrupting the lesson, then I can see the problem. And during the course of a lesson (including before and after) there are appropriate times for questions to be asked, just as I'd expect them from Mom, Dad and the pitcher. Like anything else, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. If any "guest" of the pitcher is being annoying, I can see the problem.

Still though, this is said to be an IP (Intellectual property) issue which is ridiculous. Hey Mr Pitching coach.... you didn't invent how to do this!!! Neither did Mr. Tincher. Neither did Bill Hillhouse. There are coaches who come to my lessons/clinics to get what they can for their own students all the time. And yes, I know some charge money for what comes out of my mouth too. So what????????? I didn't invent what I am teaching either!!!

If someone wants to come watch me, go for it. Hey, a lot of guys watch Bruce Lee movies, that doesn't mean they can do Karate!!!

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

I’m pretty sure if she was exposed to male Fastpitch pitchers she would be more open to the idea of men can pitch & teach the windmill technique as well as the ladies.
As far as hitting I have no preference. I think hitting is more universal than pitching. Some will say hitting is identical in both sports. I say it’s very similar
The windmilll technique IMO is the hardest skill to learn in Fastpitch and specific to the sport.
Hitting is performed in very similar fashion in both sports. Generally no leg kick, less kick, shorter stride in softball. I think the upper body for the most part is standard to both sports.
You have a guy standing on an elevated mound 60’ 6” away throwing overhand down hill vs a person standing 43’ away on a flat service coming right at you. Not to mention the size and color of the balls being used.
There has to be subtle differences to adjust to different distances, speed, and angles.
My intention is not to belittle or minimize the significance of men playing Fastpitch here Bill or being good instructors.
I’m speaking to my experience and others in my area.
Never been exposed to men’s Fastpitch and don’t really see a reason to be.
Given the choice I would play baseball over softball. Fastpitch softball isn’t part of the narrative growing up in the northeast.
You have boys sports and girls sports in school growing up. Certain sports are offered to each gender.
There are unisex/crossover sports like basketball, volleyball, soccer where both genders field a team.
Girls don’t play football, baseball, wrestle, because they have alternative sports to participate in. (In most cases)
How many High Schools field a boys Fastpitch team? I would guess not many if any at all.
I think it’s just something we’re conditioned to understand in our youth that extents to adulthood. Boys play baseball, girls play softball, and when you get older you play slowpitch. That’s the narrative I was raised with.

It may sound like or seem like I'm picking on you, I'm sorry for that. And I realize we aren't going to change each others' minds, but it's a fun conversation for me. You mentioned you're from the Northeast, me too originally. Just because you don't drive by your neighborhood and see men's fastpitch played doesn't mean it's not there. And I can tell you that the NE USA has a significant men's fastpitch history. IN FACT an assistant coach for the US Jr Men's National team (18u) is from Boston. Doesn't get much more Northeast than that111 So it's there if you wanted to see it. You clearly don't. That's fine. But you can understand my confusion since you said you preferred fastpitch to baseball as a spectator but, you just said as a player you'd choose baseball over FP (even though you've never tried it). EVERYONE I have ever met that played baseball, then went into fastpitch has said how much more they love this game than baseball. EVERYONE. And they all wish they had discovered it sooner.

You mentioned hitting being the same, or similar. I think you're confusing swing mechanics with hitting the ball. Mechanically I think you're right and it's been proven to be almost identical swings. Learning how to hit in FP is very different than baseball. And its a shame this distinction isn't taught more by hitting coaches (including female coaches). Learning how to pick pitchers, identify spins, look for tendencies are all things really never taught much and it's a damn shame. The prettiest swing in the world is meaningless unless they learn how to acclimate in a game and hit the moving pitches.

Bill

 

[uncdrew]

The intellectual property answer is correct. He's tincher.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

From my experience with Tincher they aren't hiding anything. We have tons of "guests" watching our lessons. And I'm a coach and I'm there all the time. Plenty of HCs have their daughter pitch and get lessons.

You could watch 20 of my DD's lessons and within 10 minutes of trying to fix something on your own you'd be at a loss. You don't become a pitching professional by watching a few lessons.

 

[cvsoftball]

at DD's last pitching instruction with Java, she threw maybe 4 pitches. We all spent the rest of the time going over classroom stuff, the code behind the application, if you will. The point being that Java wanted to make DD a better pitcher, me a better coach, and DW a better partner. That's what a good PI does.