My DD(14u) has been taking lesson for 3 years from the same PC that has taken several girls to D1 and D2 scholarships. He preaches speed first, then control, then breaking pitches. He is 72 years old, so he is old school, but he is very effective (he pitched several years of mens fastpitch) and has a great relationship with the girls. Head coachs DD also pitches and takes lessons from a young female instructor and he has drank the Kool Aid. There is a huge difference in approach and technique that each is teaching. Coach's DD claims to have pinpoint control and lots of breaking pitches, including a 52 mph riseball!!! My DD cruises at 57 to 58 on fastball and lives on her peel drop and screwball, with an offspeed drop curve. Head coach says she should have a riseball, our PC says you cannot throw an EFFECTIVE riseball until you can throw a steady 60, he says it should be the last pitch anyone learns. HC suggests every weekend and practice that DD should change PC, I disagree, as a matter of fact I think we are going to change head coach, after this weekend. Oh yeah, DD is #1 pitcher and pitches all big games and holds her own against most teams. i know this is more of a rant than a question but please feel free to comment!!!
Head coach pushes PC
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I think it would be really great if she had a riseball too. Sounds like she's already doing well. If she already has command of her other pitches, I don't think there is anything wrong with learning the basics of the riseball.
I haven't done research to figure out how fast you need to throw to have an effective rise. However, I'm thinking that an effective rise is more about good spin than velocity.
If a riseball enables your daughter to give the batter's yet another look, wouldn't that be "effective?"
She may not have the best riseball in the league but you don't have to have the best riseball for it to be an effective pitch for you as a pitcher.
As far as getting a new PC - if DD responds to him and is progressing well under him, I don't see much of a point of changing PCs. However, it is a difficult situation to have your PC telling you one thing and your coach telling you another.
I haven't done research to figure out how fast you need to throw to have an effective rise. However, I'm thinking that an effective rise is more about good spin than velocity.
If a riseball enables your daughter to give the batter's yet another look, wouldn't that be "effective?"
She may not have the best riseball in the league but you don't have to have the best riseball for it to be an effective pitch for you as a pitcher.
As far as getting a new PC - if DD responds to him and is progressing well under him, I don't see much of a point of changing PCs. However, it is a difficult situation to have your PC telling you one thing and your coach telling you another.
- Nov 29, 2009
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BBK,
I've seen the same situation happen with girls I have worked with over last few years. Someone started blowing smoke in a daddy's ear and he convinced others to follow. I'm like your PC, it's speed, then control and then movement. I have one of my first girls being looked at by several DI's this fall. What your PC says is very true. A pitcher must have good velocity and control of all her pitches first. What many parents don't understand is that learning how to pitch is like running a marathon. It takes many, many little steps to get there coupled with the backwards steps when something new is introduced. You seem to have grasped the concept and your daughter should benefit from your understanding.
IF.... your daughter has good command of her current pitches then I see no harm in starting the riseball mechanics. It takes most girls a year to develop enough spin to make the pitch move. It takes another year to lean how to control it and the rest of her career learning how to keep control of it. Too many people put too much stock in actual speed numbers. During my DD's pitching career she was put on a gun a total of 3 times over the years. Once by me at 14, at a pitching showcase at 17 and once during practice at 17. People would ask how hard she threw and I would have to tell them I wasn't sure. It's been a long time since she was gunned. If she can spin the ball well enough correctly she'll be able to make the ball move at that speed. My DD actually had to take a little off of the speed or she would over throw her rise.
I have to admit my DD was a freak. She was able to make the ball move after 30 minutes, though not consistently. It still took a year for her to learn how to control it. What helped her pick up the pitch so quick was that at 14 she was 5' 10" and very strong. She was throwing a consistent 59-60 mph at that time. It sounds like your DD is right at that same point in her career and her PC has a real good understanding of her abilities.
As for your HC. The guy sounds like he's had an epiphany and wants everyone to join in the celebration. You need to tell him politely and firmly that you are happy with your PC and feel there is no need to change. Please don't bring it up again. If he persists then you might be better served looking for somewhere else for you DD to play. If she is a strong as you say I'm sure there will be a team that will take her in an instant. All you have to do is look at the ads on ETeamz. There is no shortage of teams looking for pitchers.
I've seen the same situation happen with girls I have worked with over last few years. Someone started blowing smoke in a daddy's ear and he convinced others to follow. I'm like your PC, it's speed, then control and then movement. I have one of my first girls being looked at by several DI's this fall. What your PC says is very true. A pitcher must have good velocity and control of all her pitches first. What many parents don't understand is that learning how to pitch is like running a marathon. It takes many, many little steps to get there coupled with the backwards steps when something new is introduced. You seem to have grasped the concept and your daughter should benefit from your understanding.
IF.... your daughter has good command of her current pitches then I see no harm in starting the riseball mechanics. It takes most girls a year to develop enough spin to make the pitch move. It takes another year to lean how to control it and the rest of her career learning how to keep control of it. Too many people put too much stock in actual speed numbers. During my DD's pitching career she was put on a gun a total of 3 times over the years. Once by me at 14, at a pitching showcase at 17 and once during practice at 17. People would ask how hard she threw and I would have to tell them I wasn't sure. It's been a long time since she was gunned. If she can spin the ball well enough correctly she'll be able to make the ball move at that speed. My DD actually had to take a little off of the speed or she would over throw her rise.
I have to admit my DD was a freak. She was able to make the ball move after 30 minutes, though not consistently. It still took a year for her to learn how to control it. What helped her pick up the pitch so quick was that at 14 she was 5' 10" and very strong. She was throwing a consistent 59-60 mph at that time. It sounds like your DD is right at that same point in her career and her PC has a real good understanding of her abilities.
As for your HC. The guy sounds like he's had an epiphany and wants everyone to join in the celebration. You need to tell him politely and firmly that you are happy with your PC and feel there is no need to change. Please don't bring it up again. If he persists then you might be better served looking for somewhere else for you DD to play. If she is a strong as you say I'm sure there will be a team that will take her in an instant. All you have to do is look at the ads on ETeamz. There is no shortage of teams looking for pitchers.
Sparky, Thanks for the insight, I have no problem with DD learning mechanics of riseball, but I see a lot of girls with a high fastball that Dad calls a riseball and I refuse to be one of those! I really like the nasty peel drop, and it is very effective against older, stronger batters. I love seeing the frustration of older girls when our 14u team gives then fits with DD on he mound. I have learned that a routine ground ball out can be a thing of beauty!!!
DD's PC says that if the ball moves left or right, it must move a lot, if it moves up or down, a little movement can be effective. I completely agree with that statement!!
DD's PC says that if the ball moves left or right, it must move a lot, if it moves up or down, a little movement can be effective. I completely agree with that statement!!
- Nov 29, 2009
- 2,973
- 83
I have seen many girls who have a high spinney fastball they call a rise. They usually don't last too long in the circle with that pitch.
It's more about WHEN the pitch moves. The later and sharper the better. My DD's strike out pitch was her rise for the first 3 years of college. Once she was known for her rise she went to the screw and drop curve a lot in her senior year. Averaged 8 - 10 K's a game her entire college career.
What I tell the girls I work with is they'll NEVER strike everyone out. What they have to learn is how to try and control where a hitter puts the ball in play. I call them "out" pitches. As you said, the easy 3 hopper to the SS or lazy fly ball is a thing of beauty. Along with that comes another subtle benefit. A more aggressive infield. If the infielders know they won't be getting the ball drilled at them all game long they tend to play more aggressively. My daughter had to take her teammates to task in college one year. They would come up with some great defensive plays for her, but they seemed like a different defense when another pitcher was in the circle. She had to give them hell and remind them to put forth the same effort for all the pitchers on the team, not just her. They didn't do it by design, but they were more cautious when the other pitchers were in the circle.
One of the things that I believe really helps is the pitcher completely understanding what she's trying to accomplish from in the circle. For example: I will ask them to define the strike zone and how much of the ball needs to be in the zone for it to be a strike. Then I ask where the strike is called at. Then I really get some funny looks when I ask them how many strike zones there are. Most answer 1. Then I have to explain to them there are really 4 strike zones that come into play every time there is a pitch thrown. Once they understand that they seem to be more intelligent about what they are doing and why. Even with the real young ones.
- Oct 19, 2009
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My daughter takes lessons from a man in his later 60’s, a former pitcher in men’s league. He can throw strikes to 2 batters at the same time, throw behind his back, between his legs and do all kind trick pitches.
What works is what works, my daughter is doing well with him and I’ve had some discussion with head coaches who try to tell her different than what he teaches. My point to the coach I pay this pitching coach X number dollars to teach her to pitch she or I don’t need someone to tell her different!!!
Just for your info her coach teaches the rise first which he says teaches the pitcher to stay on the back side, not saying the way this coach teaches is wrong just different. Whatever works in my opinion, my daughter is the number one pitcher on her team and also pitches most big games, and the main thing she adores the pitching coach and believes in him a big plus.
What works is what works, my daughter is doing well with him and I’ve had some discussion with head coaches who try to tell her different than what he teaches. My point to the coach I pay this pitching coach X number dollars to teach her to pitch she or I don’t need someone to tell her different!!!
Just for your info her coach teaches the rise first which he says teaches the pitcher to stay on the back side, not saying the way this coach teaches is wrong just different. Whatever works in my opinion, my daughter is the number one pitcher on her team and also pitches most big games, and the main thing she adores the pitching coach and believes in him a big plus.
Rise ball
Without a doubt the rise is the hardest pitch to master if your using the correct mechanics and spin. The ball has to have BACK SPIN for the rise to work. Not side spin. That is the difference between a fastball that is thrown on an upward trajectory and one that has the appearance of rising. I state it that way only because there are some who say the rise ball never rises. Regardless of spin. If that is the case they need to try and catch Bill Hillhouse. I know what I see when I watch him pitch. I have also seen him make several guys look bad who were trying to catch him. That's why I never show up with my glove at one of his clinics.
It also takes great spin and at least 55 Mph speed to make it work. Both take time to develop. That doesnt mean you can't start learning the grip and the back spin at an earlier age. That way when you get to that level you will have a working knowledge of what should be done to throw the pitch.
When you get it working its a great pitch.
Dana
Without a doubt the rise is the hardest pitch to master if your using the correct mechanics and spin. The ball has to have BACK SPIN for the rise to work. Not side spin. That is the difference between a fastball that is thrown on an upward trajectory and one that has the appearance of rising. I state it that way only because there are some who say the rise ball never rises. Regardless of spin. If that is the case they need to try and catch Bill Hillhouse. I know what I see when I watch him pitch. I have also seen him make several guys look bad who were trying to catch him. That's why I never show up with my glove at one of his clinics.
It also takes great spin and at least 55 Mph speed to make it work. Both take time to develop. That doesnt mean you can't start learning the grip and the back spin at an earlier age. That way when you get to that level you will have a working knowledge of what should be done to throw the pitch.
When you get it working its a great pitch.
Dana
- Nov 29, 2009
- 2,973
- 83
I state it that way only because there are some who say the rise ball never rises. Regardless of spin. If that is the case they need to try and catch Bill Hillhouse. I know what I see when I watch him pitch. I have also seen him make several guys look bad who were trying to catch him. That's why I never show up with my glove at one of his clinics.
A riseball does not rise. What is does do is fall slower than the speed of gravity. Or brains are programmed for the effects of gravity on thrown objects. When a good rise is thrown it will fall slightly slower than our brain expects it to. Thus, giving it the appearance that the ball is rising. I have seen articles about how much rotation a ball would actually need for the Mangus effect to overcome gravity. The rpm's needed was way beyond what the human body is capable of achieving.
I read an article a few years back that stated if you shot a bullet out of a level gun and dropped a steel ball at the exact same time they would both hit the ground at the same time because both object are still under the same gravitational pull even though one is moving forward at a high rate of speed.
Given that, it is a great pitch when thrown correctly. If it's not done right you usually end up retrieving it from the other side of the outfield fence.
Most of the pitcher's parents I run into don't want to send other pitchers to their PC, they get worried that the PC will have less schedule flexibility for them and that the new students will improve enough to take pitching time away from their dd.
I can usually get a feel for whether or not I'd even want to try a PC based on what I see the pitcher doing and what her parents are telling them they should be working on. There is this guy my dd's travel org likes and the coach mentioned at our first practice that he offers discounted lessons to our team but then I see his dd doing the wrist snaps where she faces her catcher and then I hear her dad reminding her to shorten her stride when she's throwing a drop and I just think to myself, you get what you pay for.
I can usually get a feel for whether or not I'd even want to try a PC based on what I see the pitcher doing and what her parents are telling them they should be working on. There is this guy my dd's travel org likes and the coach mentioned at our first practice that he offers discounted lessons to our team but then I see his dd doing the wrist snaps where she faces her catcher and then I hear her dad reminding her to shorten her stride when she's throwing a drop and I just think to myself, you get what you pay for.
Uh Oh
I was really trying to avoid another does the rise ball really rise thread.
I was really trying to avoid another does the rise ball really rise thread.
