Two Seamers

[JJsqueeze]

Lorenz doesn't apply here, as we have a well defined initial state and well understood, limited inputs.

JJ, correct me if I'm misstating things (like I even need to say that): the 2S pitch with a slight axial tilt on the Z axis, or yaw has movement determined more by Bernoulli than Magnus. The goal would be to maintain the steepest possible pressure gradient along the axis, high -> low with the low on the side you wish the ball to break towards.

In a nutshell, yes. I do not know if at these speeds it is exactly a Bernoulli effect, intuition tells me that at these speeds, with the given weight and shape of the ball that it is not quite the same but I could be wrong. The good doctor can comment more specifically. but the concept is at least close in that you have two sides of an object with air moving at effectively different speeds.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

In a nutshell, yes. I do not know if at these speeds it is exactly a Bernoulli effect, intuition tells me that at these speeds, with the given weight and shape of the ball that it is not quite the same but I could be wrong. The good doctor can comment more specifically. but the concept is at least close in that you have two sides of an object with air moving at effectively different speeds.

I'm sure it's a combination of many effects. I need to get a ball onto my lathe and watch it spin lol!

 

[NorthMS]

Can anyone post a pic of the grip variations?

 

[sluggers]

Part of the confusion is that we are talking about different things but using the same words to describe them.

In softball, the pitcher cannot change her hand location relative to her body. The hand is always a few inches from her hip. So, basically, all pitches in softball are released at the same location.

In baseball, the pitcher can change his hand location. He can throw the ball anywhere from "over the top" to submarine. He has about a range of arm locations in which to release the ball. Pro pitchers will occasionally vary the position of the arm and hand at release.

Obviously, if the release position of the arm and hand are changed, then the spin axis of the ball can vary significantly. If the spin axis varies significantly, then the movement of the ball will also change significantly.

The result is that if you say, "The 2S in baseball moves more than a 4S because the release position of the ball is different", then you are also saying, "A softball 2S and a 4S won't move differently because the release position is the same."

The primary difference is that the 4S is throw with the spin axis very close to 6-12 (i.e., nearly pure backspin, with a little sidespin due to arm slot), whereas the 2S has the axis tilted so that there is less backspin (therefore, more drop) and more sidespin (more armside tailing).

It is impossible to do this in softball, since a pitcher cannot vary the arm slot in softball. The implication: Trying to teach softball pitchers to throw 2S vs. 4S fastballs is an exercise in chasing unicorns.

I scoured the PITCHf/x database to find other examples of the same movement. I found just a handful of others.

I hope Daddies read this and think a little. So, the movement that JJ is talking about was found in only a handful times in the MLB over thousands and thousand of pitches thrown by extremely talented and skilled pitchers.

People are delusional if they think you can take an 11YOA (or 18YOA) girl in the backyard and get similar results.

There is a *huge* body of pitch-tracking data from MLB (using the PITCHf/x system) showing that a 2S and 4S fastball move differently.

???

I disagree with your characterization. The PITCHf/x data does not match the pitch with the movement of the ball.

The PITCHf/x system simply gives you lots of location of the ball during a pitch, and from that the movement of the ball during the pitch is determined.

*AFTERWARDS*, someone looks at the data and then labels the pitches as a curve, slider, 2S or 4S, etc.

There is no tracking of (1) what the catcher called for on a particular pitch, (2) what the pitcher tried to throw and (3) what the pitcher actually threw.

The data from PITCHf/x, without being tied to (1) what the pitcher tried to throw and (2) whether the pitcher was successful in executing the pitch isn't particular helpful in discerning the difference between a 2S and a 4S pitch.

(The other problem is that the PITCHf/x systems spin calculations seem to be off quite a bit.)

 

[JJsqueeze]

So the softball release can vary enough to throw a 4 seam drop, rise and curve but cant manage to release a ball with 2 seams to the wind with some yaw so one side is rough and the other smooth?

I respect your tenacity in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary but put down the violin and get in the life raft....you are on a sinking boat.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

So the softball release can vary enough to throw a 4 seam drop, rise and curve but cant manage to release a ball with 2 seams to the wind with some yaw so one side is rough and the other smooth?

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. If I'm understanding him (and I'm sure I'll get corrected if I misstate this), sluggers is saying that a 2S pitch and a 4S pitch will not move differently if thrown similarly. That if you throw a 4S with the same bit of yaw, the movement of the pitch will be similar to the 2S thrown with the same inputs.

I respect your tenacity in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary but put down the violin and get in the life raft....you are on a sinking boat.

These are the not necesary parts of the discussion IMO.

 

[riseball]

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. If I'm understanding him (and I'm sure I'll get corrected if I misstate this), sluggers is saying that a 2S pitch and a 4S pitch will not move differently if thrown similarly. That if you throw a 4S with the same bit of yaw, the movement of the pitch will be similar to the 2S thrown with the same inputs.

So are they the same or similar? A 4S traditional curve is similar to a 2S cutter. To one degree or another all pitches are similar, granted some more than others.

 

[Greenmonsters]

No question that throwing overhand does lend itself to potentially more arm angle/release point variations, but does anyone believe that the arm angle/pitch angle/release point for a screwball is the same as used for other FP pitches??? I think there is a difference in FP, but more so for the hztl movement pitches than the vertical movement pitches. I think we need pix/video to see how much experienced FP pitchers intentionally vary their release points/arm angles/pitch angles.

 

[pobguy]

I disagree with your characterization. The PITCHf/x data does not match the pitch with the movement of the ball.

The PITCHf/x system simply gives you lots of location of the ball during a pitch, and from that the movement of the ball during the pitch is determined.

*AFTERWARDS*, someone looks at the data and then labels the pitches as a curve, slider, 2S or 4S, etc.

There is no tracking of (1) what the catcher called for on a particular pitch, (2) what the pitcher tried to throw and (3) what the pitcher actually threw.

The data from PITCHf/x, without being tied to (1) what the pitcher tried to throw and (2) whether the pitcher was successful in executing the pitch isn't particular helpful in discerning the difference between a 2S and a 4S pitch.

(The other problem is that the PITCHf/x systems spin calculations seem to be off quite a bit.)

While I agree with what you are say--namely, the pitch type is determined after the fact entirely from an analysis of the trajectory, without knowing what the pitcher or catcher intended, it is actually the case that MLB pitchers have used PITCHf/x to analyze their own pitches. Ex-MLB pitcher (and now Red Sox consultant) Brian Bannister is one pitcher who comes to mind. I know from having discussed this very point with him that there is a difference in movement between 2S and 4S fastballs in MLB. And the primary difference has to do with the tilting of the spin axis for the 2S, leading to more tail and less "hop", the latter meaning more drop. Taken to an extreme, so-called sinkerball pitchers are actually throwing 2S fastballs.

Now, having said all that, I am not an expert on pitching mechanics in softball, so I cannot speak to how easy or difficult it is for a fastpitch softball pitcher to get the same kind of 2S-4S differentiation that pitchers seem to get in baseball. I have to rely on you people--the real experts--on that.

 

[Perfect Circle]

And the primary difference has to do with the tilting of the spin axis for the 2S, leading to more tail and less "hop", the latter meaning more drop. Taken to an extreme, so-called sinkerball pitchers are actually throwing 2S fastballs.

DD started w/ the hockey puck.... then to the taped ball. With the grip above, it was for her first pitch... drop. It always seemed to have more drop with 2~Seams. Pads of fingers over the seam gives you something to peel. You dig the thumb & pinky in hard, as you peel, and you got an "Off the Table Drop"...Keep the pads behind the seams, and thumb & pinky off any seams.... you got the "Flat Finger Knuckle Ball"... All 2~Seamed.

Why I'm interested is I know you get more location/rotation w/ 2~Seamed. I don't understand how she gets the ball moving North,South,East & West all 1/7... 2~SEAMED ?????

It was plain to see... more drop on the 2~SEAMER