What is "Turning the Triangle"?

[Hitter]

Get it all correct the other sited posted a clip it has no right to post and that was and is plane and simple!

The person who took the video using the Instructo Swing clip was told not to post it! That person knew that it was not to be posted for any reason and that person knew it!

The question was asked which swing.....if you do not understand the clip and you try to use it as an example you are not informed and are guessing in my opinion to what you think you see when comparing the two swings which is exactly what was implied by the question.

You need to understand in any clip why they do what they do....I am repeating myself as the Bustos the Great Clip clearly shows her going after balls no one else would attempt to hit and for home runs.

Would you teach a 12 year old how to do this that is stepping out and does not understand how to do what she is doing? No!

Do we have kids who can do it ? Yes!

Bob this is between you and Chris not me, as I am comfortable with what and how I teach hitting and try to learn from anyone.

I chime in if I have something to add or offer an opinion on or how to explain what we do, which is part of the reason I came to this site as it offers some sensibility and decorum.

I choose to ignore some people who post and I could care less what they think of me or what I teach.

Thanks Howard

 

[Chris O'Leary]

How can you say anything about the position of the bat in the clip above, given that you can't even see the bat in the critical frames of the clip above?

Where did the bat go?

This is a perfect example of projecting one's views on a clip (and basing one's views on a clip that let you do just that).

I prefer to base my views on a clip, like my Bush clip, where you can actually see what the bat is doing.

If you want a Pujols clip, where you can actually see what the bat is doing, let me know.

 

[Hitter]

Wow. I post one random clip asking for an explanation of "the barrel stays in the same position relative to the back shoulder", in terms of what frame do you see this beginning, and instead of an answer I get a whole page of Bustos "baiting a pitcher". Can we stay on topic a little better?? I believe the debate is whether or not the triangle is turned/flipped or if the arms/hands do nothing actively and the barrel maintains it's same position relative to the back shoulder. In an attempt to get a solid answer as to what you are describing Chris, so that I can try it myself, can you give me a frame number where you see the barrel getting into that position and the corresponding frames for which it maintains that position in the clip below? The count, situation, good or bad swing, are really non factors in determining when this happens in a random clip IMO.

You term it a random clip and I view it as an opportunity to argue what you see verses a parent or coach asking I wonder why she or he does what they do?

This is a beer hall debate as to if it tastes great or is less filling....who is buying the next round?

I will drink to that!

Thanks Howard

 

[cartersball]

You term it a random clip and I view it as an opportunity to argue what you see verses a parent or coach asking I wonder why she or he does what they do?

This is a beer hall debate as to if it tastes great or is less filling....who is buying the next round?

I will drink to that!

Thanks Howard

No attempt at debate whatsoever here Hitter. I am actually trying to get an understanding of what Chris sees versus what I see so I can try (with bat in hand) what Chris is saying he sees. Any clip posted here can be seen as an opportunity to argue. I would rather try to feel with my own two hands what it is Chris is describing. In fact I think we would all do well to push away from the desk every now and then to swing a bat with an understanding of what another poster is saying before casting dispersion upon it. Such is the male POV though, shoot first ask questions later. A better approach I think is to ask questions, try it out, draw conclusions based on that trial, and then shoot. That way at least you understand why you are pulling the trigger.......


Chris for the sake of the swing itself, Pujols bat is connected to his hands which are clear as day. Unless he is dumping the barrel or something I would assume that bat is on it's way to flat or already flat in those frames. Feel free to post a full Pujols swing from about this same angle (where the hands, arms, and bat can be viewed) at 60fps if that would work better, just don't make it extremely slow to illustrate what you are talking about. I would prefer to click through the full speed clip one frame at a time when I use it in Quicktime.

 

[Wellphyt]

Can we take a vote??

Which hitter is turning the triangle and which hitter is pulling the triangle?

Great comparison clips Tewks. When I watch these clips I see two hitters with totally different mechanics.

Does the hitter in the bottom clip flip the triangle? No. As I said earlier, there are different ways to move the triangle. Many hitters in fastpitch have swings similar to the hitter in the bottom clip. Fewer hitters have swings like Bustos. IMO, fastpitch is moving away from the swing in the bottom clip, and moving towards a swing more like Bustos.

I don't see much separation between the hips and hands with the hitter in the bottom clip. To my eyes her swing looks very close to being a gate swing. Then I watch Bustos and I can clearly see her hips leading her hands and a hitter who gets excellent separation, especially for a fastpitch hitter.

Then I check out the front forearm/elbow of each hitter heading into contact. What do I see? I see the hitter in the bottom clip with a low front forearm/elbow that never really gets up. Then I watch the Bustos clip and I see a hitter that gets her front forearm/elbow up early; and keeps it up throughout her entire swing.

The differences in the lead forearm/elbow position, and differences in the hip to hand separation between the two hitters, tells me they are using two different sets of mechanics. IMO, the differences can be traced to how the two hitters choose to move the triangle. I prefer to teach my DD to move the triangle similar to how Bustos does it.

Flattening the palms is directly tied to how the triangle is moved. When I watch these two clips I see Bustos getting her hands flat quicker in her swing than the other hitter. That leads me to believe that Bustos has a more efficient swing than the other hitter.

 

[Tewks]

Here is a link to my DD working on "turning the triangle/leveling" on a high tee setup.
That's all we were working on, at a relaxed pace.
YouTube - MNIce29's Channel

Bucket, have her stay back "in" the rear hip a little longer. Looks like she is shifting to the front side early so she is still going to the upper body for more power than necessary. The hands look good, just need to get synced with the lower half better.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

No attempt at debate whatsoever here Hitter. I am actually trying to get an understanding of what Chris sees versus what I see so I can try (with bat in hand) what Chris is saying he sees.

I see the hinge angle being maintained and the position of the bat relative to the back shoulder being maintained through the point of contact.

That requires that the hands be active, but they aren't swiveling the barrel early. Instead, they are applying restraining torques first in one direction and then the other.

Chris for the sake of the swing itself, Pujols bat is connected to his hands which are clear as day.

It's simply ridiculous to say that given that you can't see the barrel of the bat.

Feel free to post a full Pujols swing from about this same angle (where the hands, arms, and bat can be viewed) at 60fps if that would work better, just don't make it extremely slow to illustrate what you are talking about. I would prefer to click through the full speed clip one frame at a time when I use it in Quicktime.

I'm not sure what you aversion to super slow motion is. Given that we are looking at specific angles, the only way to measure those angles is to slow the clip way down.

I find it curious that at the same time I get tons of complements from minor and major league level guys for my slow motion clips, some people are pushing back on them.

 

[tom.guerry]

well -

I like the flip the triangle cue. the flip feel in my opinion comes from swivel (forearm action) at GO which requires a suddeness and involves synched forearm rotation (both forearms twist) with triangle "flipping" and shoulder tilt. The focus on the action needs to be in the hands.

the GO/flip still needs to happen in sequence, prepared for by the synched external rotation of back arm and front leg and the internal rotation of the lead arm, this part being same as overhand throw (see Hodge info).

top hand wrist needs to get and stay firmly dorsiflexed when swivel starts.

another cue is hands slot the elbow, or slotting is the swing (do not slot then swing), etc.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Great comparison clips Tewks. When I watch these clips I see two hitters with totally different mechanics.

I have to wonder how much of this is about the swing and how much of this is about the fact that I like Megan Bush's swing.

As of today, Megan Bush is hitting .373, is slugging .814, and has 7 home runs.

What more do you want?

 

[cartersball]

I see the hinge angle being maintained and the position of the bat relative to the back shoulder being maintained through the point of contact.

That requires that the hands be active, but they aren't swiveling the barrel early. Instead, they are applying restraining torques first in one direction and then the other.

Thank you for the clarification, but I am still unclear without a clip to view or much explanation into exactly what Pujols does to achieve this.

I'm not sure what you aversion to super slow motion is. Given that we are looking at specific angles, the only way to measure those angles is to slow the clip way down.

I find it curious that at the same time I get tons of complements from minor and major league level guys for my slow motion clips, some people are pushing back on them.

I don't have an aversion to them. They are great for demonstrating in a post or on the web, but if I save the image and view in Quicktime frame by frame they don't work so well. I like to be able to control the speed of the clip when concentrating on certain details. Kind of a progression thing.