Committment & conflicting interests?

I know a little about math. I've got a degree in EE. My GPA in math in college was 4.0 (straight As). I graduated no. 1 in my class in engineering. I work at a senior level in one of the world's most well known technology companies.

For this, I'll assume that your DD is not a math prodigy. If she were, by the way, all she would want to do is math, because to a prodigy, math is play.

SO:

1) There is an old Chinese saying, which paraphrased, says, "Three shoemakers are better than one Henry Kissinger." Engineering and innovation in today's world is not about putting a bright person in a lab, shutting the door, and then waiting for that person to "invent". Rather, it is about groups of people working as a team. If your child doesn't know how to work with other people, then she will fail.

Softball is the best sport to learn teamwork. Softball is about "individual excellence within a team environment". If you want your child to be a leader in innovation, it is more important at her age to learn how to get along with 12 other girls of varying interests than to learn integral calculus.

2) Your information about college preparedness is wrong. In the US, as opposed to China, Japan, etc., anyone (and I mean anyone) can go to college. In the almost all of the rest of the world, the only people who can go to college are those who pass rigorous college entrance exams.

So, guess which group is going to be better prepared for college math? The masses of people who we allow to attempt college in the US? Or the select few that have already proven they are ready for college?

3) The trick in college is calculus. The calculus teachers in college are EXCELLENT. They are wonderful. So, a kid that is well prepared in algebra and geometry will catch up with your DD in a semester. (Again, assuming your DD is not a prodigy.)

4) If your child does work in a science area, you will find, surprisingly, that the most valuable people are *NOT* the best physicists or chemists, but rather are the people who know how to work on a team and lead a group. And, guess what? Those are the people who played a team sport.

I hate to brag (well, actually, I don't hate to brag), but DD#3 got a degree in chemistry. She also won a national championship in basketball. Guess what her career looks like? She is in demand by everyone in her business. Why? She knows *HOW TO WORK WITH PEOPLE*.

5) You and your wife are missing the best part of raising children. if you lead the child, all then your child's path is constrained by what your hopes, desires and fears. If you let the child lead, then you end up in wonderful places, seeing and doing things you can't imagine.

Ray

calgofo said:

I had the same expierience as above. A significant majority were honor roll, NHS, 4.0, etc, etc. After reaching the 18u level, all were signed by colleges. The only caveat I offer is beware of grade inflation. Many times I had kids who were honor roll, NHS, whatever, but their SAT scores were not in line with what their HS transcripts suggested. As I said, All got signed, however,only three did not require some form of remediation when they got to college. I don't feel this had anything to do with SB but with sub-optimal public school education.

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Exactly. I learned a long time ago you could believe low grades. High grades? Better confirm that with SAT or ACT scores.

Thanks calgofo and Amy in AZ for pointing out some inaccuracies in the anti-softball argument. I agree, as long as the daughter has fun doing it, why not? Lots of good life lessons to be learned from softball as well as in the classroom. Well, the debate will continue in our home.

Thanks Ray for some excellent points. I agree with most, although I would argue that my wife and I are not control freaks, which is kind of what you seem to be hinting at - seriously, we're doing our best to let our girl lead us where her dreams want her to go, and we're trying to follow along, listen to her cues and just give her the support and guidance she needs along the way (not perfect, far from it, but doing our best here!). We're trying to raise an independent responsible human being, not a 'math robot'.

However, for my wife, the extra math is a requirement - she's determined that when DD gets to college, she will have every available option open to her and in her mind, the math she gets in school isn't going to get her there (I actually agree with that - we want her to be ready for college level math and not have to do a year of remedial). No, she's not a prodigy, just a really bright kid who's stuck in a state with bad curriculum (the same stuff CA threw out 10 years ago) and the 48th lowest math standards in the country. And math opens more doors than any other specialty.

So I understand why my wife feels the way she does - I just disagree about how important a role softball (or any sport or extra-curricular activity) should play and what level of time/financial commitment is appropriate. What I'm afraid will happen next is our girl will just quit because she sees how much conflict it causes between her mom & dad. DD wants to keep playing, and we're working to find a compromise position where she'll be able to play on a year-round team, keep developing the skills and still keep her mom happy that the academic side is being adequately met.

Your well written points have actually given me some good ammunition to argue in favor of select softball, Ray, so thanks a ton for the input . . .

I'm all for getting a strong math background in high school. It is important.

Here is the deal--

Calculus is the basis for all the physical sciences. Everyone involved in engineering, chemistry, physics knows this. This is not a secret.

There is a tremendous emphasis in college on teaching calculus. Every college has its math coursework aimed at teaching calculus. Further, the teaching of calculus in college is superb. It is well thought out and planned.

So, then, the logical thing is to get your DD ready for college calculus. What she needs is a strong background in geometry and algebra. That is really all she needs.

When she gets to college, she needs to take pre-calculus algebra and geometry. She should *NOT* hop into calculus as a freshman. Many, many kids have tried to do this and have failed, even though they had all kinds of advanced coursework in HS.

Unless your child is a prodigy, all the extra math in the world now is not going to be as good as her taking her time and taking pre-calc algebra and geometry in college.

As to the level of time commitment and financial commitment, I totally agree that not everyone should play travel ball. G

We have gone totally OT, but I can't tell you the large number of kids that I run into that can't balance a check book. Or, if something costs $12.00, they don't know how much 20% off of that is.

The kids aren't learning to multiply anymore. (I am a former 2nd grade teacher.)

When my DD moved out, I asked her if she had inquired about what the utilities might cost. She said "What are utilities?" Oh, my.

But, she can work any calc problem that you give her - as long as she has her calculator.

We had several girls who chose not too play hs ball last season b/c they would miss too much school. My dd and the others did really well, grade wise, because they knew what was ahead of them and what their coach expected of them. If there were away games, the girls always had their work with them on the van, bus or whatever and they did their work on the way to the game and back, if they had not completed it prior to getting there. Our hs coach is very strict on grades and will add extra foul posts, crunches or push ups if they let their grades decline. My dd fell behind in math, which is her weakest subject. We had a tutor work with her on the afternoons she didn't have ball and it finally clicked with her. However, her math deficientcy was not a product of her playing softball - it was just in her own head. I'm glad she got it worked out and now we can move forward with our ball and find the balance between the two again.

I have 2 nieces in Washington State. Both went to public school, 4.0, good athletes. 1 went to a private college on a cross country scholarship. In college she finished in 4 years with a 3.98 and was highly recruited out of college as an engineer. Her scholarship required her to run cross country in the fall, indoor track in the winter and track in the spring. The other niece played multiple sports in HS. Decided not to do sports in college. She graduated with a Masters from Harvard. I guess my point is public school is what you make it. There is nothing wrong with Washington public schools. The statistics you use are from the Washington Education Association the most powerful union in the state. The worse it sounds the more money they can get for schools.

Thank you everyone for your insights. Sorry this drifted so far off topic . . . I do think it's a useful discussion and something we all need to talk about as we try to keep things in their proper perspectives and do what's right for our kids & families.

I will point out to that last post that our information has mostly come from www.wheresthemath.com - a non-profit, grass roots organization started by the mom of a 6th grader when she learned that he didn't know how to do long division without a calculator and just thought there was something wrong with that picture (and this was in the Bellevue school district, arguable the wealthiest district in the state). Anything you'd want to know about math education, standards, curriculum and the ongoing debate over traditional vs. 'fuzzy' math methods can be found on their site.

Well, DD's mom has compromised in that she's agreed to let daughter attend a couple of travel team tryouts next month. We'll see how she does and how both mom and daughter feel about it after. Now we're going to get back to work, got some conditioning & BP to catch up on.

My DD is a 4.0 student (she got an 1800 on her SAT but is now studying so she can do better then that) who plays not only softball, but volleyball and basketball. She dropped volleyball (her team took 8th out of 200 teams at Reno, and she played the whole time, there was just not enough time for 3 elite level sports, so after freshman year she dropped that) but still plays school vb. She plays travel softball and elite basketball. She snowboards, wakeboards and loves fishing. We have tried to make sure she has a well rounded childhood. She has a great work ethic and is in the top 5% of her class, (all AP and honor classes) she will also be the first 12 sport athlete in her school next year if she plays all three sports as a senior, she has been a starter in all three sports since she became a high school student at 13, she is a grade ahead which if I had to do it over again that wouldn't happen....so yes they can do it all. The only thing that I would do different is to stop the teachers from giving so much HOMEWORK!!! She is up to all hours of the night, I do believe they have gone overboard with the homework 6 classes with an hour homework each means late night studying for my DD. I have read several articles now on the amount of homework our kids are getting are actually not doing them any good, because learning stops after a certain period of time.