Riseball spin

[riseball]

I always thought bulletspins tend to get hammered since they don't really move. But maybe I should ditch the RevFire and teach this Wunderpitch.

 

[pobguy]

A fielder is reading ball trajectory, which is in part influenced by the spin imparted by the bat-ball collision. So, in that sense, spin should not be disregarded. However, when it comes to fielding, the physical observation of the spin is a non-critical factor.

Not to change the subject, but some of you might have some fun reading my analysis of the Hunter Pence "triple double" from the 2012 NLCS. See Hunter Pence's "Triple Double". Pete Kozma, the Cards shortshop, anticipate that the batted ball would be spinning in a certain way (the usual way, actually) and moved accordingly. The ball had exactly the opposite spin, however, so it broke in the other direction. It was a fun analysis to do.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

If my understanding of how pitches move is correct, I have to disagree with your statement. A ball thrown with pure bullet spin will follow a "gravity-only" trajectory, independent of the rate of spin. A ball thrown with pure backspin will have its trajectory rise above the gravity-only trajectory, by an amount that essentially proportional to the rate of backspin. If I am misunderstanding what you are saying, then please correct me. And certainly if you disagree with what I have said, let's discuss further.

Thank you, let's discuss further.

Here's my perspective.

The more a true back-spin is realized with the windmill motion, the more of a sacrifice there is in terms of pitch velocity. In fact, it is my belief that back-spin is generally compromised for increased pitch speed ... and I'd like to better appreciate if this is a wise choice, or simply the choice many have taken unwisely.

For a bullet-spin riseball I believe the key factors are ‘speed’, ‘release angle’ and ‘release point’.

What would the profile differences be in the following two pitches?

- Pitch-A: 64-mph, bullet-spin, 26rps.
- Pitch-B: 58-mph, back-spin, 26rps.

You gave me an Excel file earlier for computing trajectories, but I don't understand what some of the parameters are ... so I haven't been able to use the program to perform sample estimates.

The program was called "Trajectory Calculator".

Here are the parameters. I've included "???" where I could use some assistance in understanding.

- mass (oz): 6.5
- circumference (inches): 12
- x0 (ft): ???
- y0 (ft): 38 (assume this is the pitch distance from 'release' to 'contact'.
- z0 (ft): ???
- v0 (mph): 65 (assume this is the ball velocity at 'release')
- theta (deg): ???
- phi (deg): ???
- wb (rpm): ???
- ws (rpm): ???
- wg (rpm) : ???
- tau (sec): ???
- dt (sec): ???

Your assistance and sharing is much appreciated.

 

[Balls]

Thank you, let's discuss further.

Here's my perspective.

The more a true back-spin is realized with the windmill motion, the more of a sacrifice there is in terms of pitch velocity. In fact, it is my belief that back-spin is generally compromised for increased pitch speed ... and I'd like to better appreciate if this is a wise choice, or simply the choice many have taken unwisely.

For a bullet-spin riseball I believe the key factors are ‘speed’, ‘release angle’ and ‘release point’.

What would the profile differences be in the following two pitches?

- Pitch-A: 64-mph, bullet-spin, 26rps.
- Pitch-B: 58-mph, back-spin, 26rps.

You gave me an Excel file earlier for computing trajectories, but I don't understand what some of the parameters are ... so I haven't been able to use the program to perform sample estimates.

The program was called "Trajectory Calculator".

Here are the parameters. I've included "???" where I could use some assistance in understanding.

- mass (oz): 6.5
- circumference (inches): 12
- x0 (ft): ???
- y0 (ft): 38 (assume this is the pitch distance from 'release' to 'contact'.
- z0 (ft): ???
- v0 (mph): 65 (assume this is the ball velocity at 'release')
- theta (deg): ???
- phi (deg): ???
- wb (rpm): ???
- ws (rpm): ???
- wg (rpm) : ???
- tau (sec): ???
- dt (sec): ???

Your assistance and sharing is much appreciated.

I don't agree with this at all. The rise can be thrown with just as much velocity as any other pitch.
I've seen alot of pitchers throw a rise by scooping their hand under the ball to gain backspin and this costs them speed.
If the pitch is thrown with the thumb coming through in front of the ball and then snapping backwards the pitch will have the right spin and can thrown at the same velocity as a drop ball. Note there is no such pitch as a fast ball in mens fastpitch because flat pitches get lit up.
Again if a pitch is thrown with bullet spin high in the zone it is still not a rise ball just a high thrown tunnel pitch.

 

[pobguy]

Thank you, let's discuss further.

The more a true back-spin is realized with the windmill motion, the more of a sacrifice there is in terms of pitch velocity. In fact, it is my belief that back-spin is generally compromised for increased pitch speed ... and I'd like to better appreciate if this is a wise choice, or simply the choice many have taken unwisely.

For a bullet-spin riseball I believe the key factors are ‘speed’, ‘release angle’ and ‘release point’.

What would the profile differences be in the following two pitches?

- Pitch-A: 64-mph, bullet-spin, 26rps.
- Pitch-B: 58-mph, back-spin, 26rps.

You gave me an Excel file earlier for computing trajectories, but I don't understand what some of the parameters are ... so I haven't been able to use the program to perform sample estimates.

The program was called "Trajectory Calculator".

Here are the parameters. I've included "???" where I could use some assistance in understanding.

- mass (oz): 6.5
- circumference (inches): 12
- x0 (ft): ???
- y0 (ft): 38 (assume this is the pitch distance from 'release' to 'contact'.
- z0 (ft): ???
- v0 (mph): 65 (assume this is the ball velocity at 'release')
- theta (deg): ???
- phi (deg): ???
- wb (rpm): ???
- ws (rpm): ???
- wg (rpm) : ???
- tau (sec): ???
- dt (sec): ???

Your assistance and sharing is much appreciated.

My remarks assumed that eveyrthing is the same except for spin direction (bullet spin for one, backspin for other). In particular, I assumed same release speed.

Re my Trajectory Calculator:
x0 = "side direction" at release ( you can set this to 0)
z0 = height at release
theta = vertical launch angle (>0 for up, which is the usual)
phi = horizontal launch angle (set this to 180)
wb = backspin (+ for backspin, - for topspin)
ws = sidespin
wg = bullet spin
tau = (ignore this and keep at default value)
dt = (ignore this and keep at default value)

y=0 corresponds to the corner of home plate. Typically the pitch is inspected at the front edge of home plate, y=1.416 ft.
Send me an e-mail if you need further help running this or interpreting the results and I'll see if I can help.

 

[Balls]

There are definitely pitches that because of spin axis and spin direction offset some gravitational forces.....IMO this is classified as a riseball.
Especially to a novice hitter this is difficult to hit. Pitchers with a spin axis closer to true backspin can use this pitch even against elite hitters. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say I've ever seen video evidence of a true backspin.....just that the closer a pitcher gets to it the more effective their riseball will be.
The term we give to this pitch (riseball) is surely taken from a hitters/catchers perspective....'cause if you've ever been in that position facing a good riseball pitcher, you swear it rises.......thus the crux of the long running debate on "does a riseball really rise".
We could discuss bullet spin/backspin, etc. all day long.....the simple fact is that the riseball can be a very effective pitch.
As you can see by the length of this thread it does make for some interesting dialog though.

I dont believe that a rise ball actually breaks upwards but as you said it does do something different in the air which appears to make it rise from a batting perspective. I agree that it can be an effective pitch but I also know that get it wrong and your fielders will be fetching it from over the fence.
I have a friend who rearly uses a rise because he believes they tend to get dispatched more than any other pitch.
Myself I throw the rise often especially low rise to the corners (knee High).
My question is do elite female pitchers in the USA use a low rise pitch, is it taught as it is the hardest pitch to throw IMO?
In Australia the only female pitcher I have seen to throw a low rise is Jocelyn McCallum and she pitched for Australia.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I don't agree with this at all. The rise can be thrown with just as much velocity as any other pitch.
I've seen alot of pitchers throw a rise by scooping their hand under the ball to gain backspin and this costs them speed.
If the pitch is thrown with the thumb coming through in front of the ball and then snapping backwards the pitch will have the right spin and can thrown at the same velocity as a drop ball. Note there is no such pitch as a fast ball in mens fastpitch because flat pitches get lit up.
Again if a pitch is thrown with bullet spin high in the zone it is still not a rise ball just a high thrown tunnel pitch.

Many girls FP teams don't have pitchers throwing fastballs either .... But for a different reason .... That being that what many term as a fastball has a drop-ball spin .... And as such is used as a drop-ball.

 

[Balls]

Many girls FP teams don't have pitchers throwing fastballs either .... But for a different reason .... That being that what many term as a fastball has a drop-ball spin .... And as such is used as a drop-ball.

This makes sense. No substitute for a good drop ball it should be a pitchers bread and butter pitch.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

My remarks assumed that eveyrthing is the same except for spin direction (bullet spin for one, backspin for other). In particular, I assumed same release speed.

Re my Trajectory Calculator:
x0 = "side direction" at release ( you can set this to 0)
z0 = height at release
theta = vertical launch angle (>0 for up, which is the usual)
phi = horizontal launch angle (set this to 180)
wb = backspin (+ for backspin, - for topspin)
ws = sidespin
wg = bullet spin
tau = (ignore this and keep at default value)
dt = (ignore this and keep at default value)

y=0 corresponds to the corner of home plate. Typically the pitch is inspected at the front edge of home plate, y=1.416 ft.
Send me an e-mail if you need further help running this or interpreting the results and I'll see if I can help.

Pobguy .... thank you very much for this information.

I'm enjoying your program.

I'll have some results to share shortly.

 

[riseball]

If my understanding of how pitches move is correct, I have to disagree with your statement. A ball thrown with pure bullet spin will follow a "gravity-only" trajectory, independent of the rate of spin. A ball thrown with pure backspin will have its trajectory rise above the gravity-only trajectory, by an amount that essentially proportional to the rate of backspin...

Sounds like the Wunderpitch can have either the "profile" of a riseball or a drop depending on where it is thrown. I guess those 10U pitchers with 5 pitches that all have the same spin may be on to something.