Riseball spin

[FiveFrameSwing]

I would accept that vast majority of pitchers cannot throw a riseball and the result is bullet spin. But that is not a riseball. Rather it is typically a fat, flat pitch destined for the cow pasture beyond the outfield fence.

No, it is a riseball .... in that the pitch has the same profile as a riseball thrown with a perfect back-spin ..... and I truly welcome data to the contrary. The closest true back-spin pitches I've seen have virtually the identical pitch profile as a bullet-spin riseball.

 

[riseball]

No, it is a riseball .... in that the pitch has the same profile as a riseball thrown with a perfect back-spin ..... and I truly welcome data to the contrary. The closest true back-spin pitches I've seen have virtually the identical pitch profile as a bullet-spin riseball.

The difference between a bullet spin and a true riseball is only 90 degrees of yaw so in that sense they are virtually identical. I guess since the difference between a drop and a curve is only 90 degrees of roll they are also virtually identical.

 

[Balls]

The difference between a bullet spin and a true riseball is only 90 degrees of yaw so in that sense they are virtually identical.

Yes this i true. But I would say if you rotate the yaw another 90 deg it would be a drop ball.

I know from my own experience that the rise and a bullet spin (tunnel pitch) pitch look different through the air.
Throw the later and the good batters jump on it and it gets lit up. Thats not to say they won't smash a rise ball but flat pitches are asking to be hit.
I dont think these guys have enough time to recognise spin but good batters can pick a flat pitch almost out of the hand.
This includes a drop with bad shape and a hanging change up.
In mens softball most pitchers dont throw any pitches that dont change planes eg curve ball.
If orientation of spin had no effect on a pitched ball then why would a pitcher spend so much time working on movement, bearing in mind movement pitches are based on correct spin.

 

[riseball]

Yes this i true. But I would say if you rotate the yaw another 90 deg it would be a drop ball.

I know from my own experience that the rise and a bullet spin (tunnel pitch) pitch look different through the air.
Throw the later and the good batters jump on it and it gets lit up. Thats not to say they won't smash a rise ball but flat pitches are asking to be hit.
I dont think these guys have enough time to recognise spin but good batters can pick a flat pitch almost out of the hand.
This includes a drop with bad shape and a hanging change up.
In mens softball most pitchers dont throw any pitches that dont change planes eg curve ball.
If orientation of spin had no effect on a pitched ball then why would a pitcher spend so much time working on movement, bearing in mind movement pitches are based on correct spin.

True. If you yaw bullet spin the other direction it becomes a drop. So following the logic that despite 90 degrees of yaw a bulletspin and a classic riseball are the same pitch profile, then every pitch thrown has a virtually identical pitch profile. That sure makes pitching easy.

 

[Balls]

True. If you yaw bullet spin the other direction it becomes a drop. So following the logic that despite 90 degrees of yaw a bulletspin and a classic riseball are the same pitch profile, then every pitch thrown has a virtually identical pitch profile. That sure makes pitching easy.

Think of the hours of I could have saved if someone had of told me this years ago.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I would accept that vast majority of pitchers cannot throw a riseball and the result is bullet spin. But that is not a riseball. Rather it is typically a fat, flat pitch destined for the cow pasture beyond the outfield fence.

Yesterday (3/28/2014) Escobedo threw her bullet-spin riseball repeatedly and collected 16 KOs against Univ of Az. One pitch did end up in the cow pasture .... but out of 21 outs, she collected 16 herself.

 

[Rick Pauly]

There are definitely pitches that because of spin axis and spin direction offset some gravitational forces.....IMO this is classified as a riseball.
Especially to a novice hitter this is difficult to hit. Pitchers with a spin axis closer to true backspin can use this pitch even against elite hitters. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say I've ever seen video evidence of a true backspin.....just that the closer a pitcher gets to it the more effective their riseball will be.
The term we give to this pitch (riseball) is surely taken from a hitters/catchers perspective....'cause if you've ever been in that position facing a good riseball pitcher, you swear it rises.......thus the crux of the long running debate on "does a riseball really rise".
We could discuss bullet spin/backspin, etc. all day long.....the simple fact is that the riseball can be a very effective pitch.
As you can see by the length of this thread it does make for some interesting dialog though.

 

[riseball]

Yesterday (3/28/2014) Escobedo threw her bullet-spin riseball repeatedly and collected 16 KOs against Univ of Az. One pitch did end up in the cow pasture .... but out of 21 outs, she collected 16 herself.

If a bulletspin has the virtually identical profile as every other pitch thrown how could you tell it was a riseball? Are you saying you saw it rise?

 

[Greenmonsters]

I admit that most hitters at the HS or TB level can do just fine without seeing spin since they rarely see significant (3+ balls) movement. However, the ability to do so seems pretty much a given with great hitters. Regardless of the claims most pitchers only have 3 - 4 pitches and typically 2 will spin the same. A movement pitch and a change up. While detecting movement is all fine and good, it is the spin that will determine the movement or lack thereof. Using relaxed open focus, a concept that has been around for centuries a skilled hitter should be able to recognize spin which presents itself instantly upon release. In the alternative detection of movement is an exercise which requires observation over time to discern. I have yet to meet a truly elite level hitter (MLB, NPF, PFX) that was not able to recognize the spin from one pitch to another. Which is why pitchers go to great lengths to perfect a change up that mimics the spin and movement of a regular pitch and why knuckle changeups largely become ineffective at the higher levels. The ability to recognize spin is not just a skill reserved for hitters. It is also at the core of great defensive play at it tells you where the ball is going and what it will do when it gets there.

Seriously? I'm calling BS on this. In what parallel universe does an OF 150 to 300+ from the plate read spin, assuming there is even an identifiable spin?

 

[riseball]

Never said they were picking it up off bat, but they do as the ball approaches and good infielders live and die by it. A ball hit with top spin will behave very differently than one with backspin.