Open vs Closed Pitching Style

[Amy in AZ.]

Ernie Banks?

 

[Mark H]

lol. Good catch. Apparently Ernie had a heretofore unknown career in fp after he left MLB. Ernie Banks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Coach Stan]

Many MLB and Triple A and Double AA ball players had gravitated to men's fast pitch after their careers in baseball had reached their peek. I remember back in the 60's, 70's and early 80's facing guys who reached the highest level of base ball. Do not know if that is still happening now days.

 

[Hillhouse]

interesting for me..... I've had many discussions ref this same subject. Argument for Open/Close is Ernie Banks teaches it and many pitchers years back have been very successful. How do you argue against success?

Interesting. Except pitching is no different than hitting in many aspects. Ernie was not a pitcher, he was teaching based on what he thought he saw others doing. And hitting coaches used to teach what they THOUGHT they were seeing too (squish the bug, etc.) then with advent of slow mo cameras, RVP, Dartfish, etc. we are seeing that is NOT what the great pitchers are actually doing. Or hitters. So, they have to relearn what the people were actually doing.

Part of the problem here is we all define what is a successful pitcher by different standards. In year's past, only the best of the best got to play in college. Yet, today... nearly every college has a program and almost anyone who wants to can play in college at some level. Yet the stigma still applies that "she played in college so she must be VERY good". Maybe I hold my standards too high but I just don't see that as a major criteria anymore. And I still say the lack of quality hitting makes average pitchers look good. And that is going to change as the technology is improving for hitting training.

Bill

 

[Mark H]

Stan,

Yeah I thought after I posted that someone would come along and tell their story of playing fp with Ernie Banks after MLB. But if he did, I'm pretty sure he didn't pitch.

 

[Mark H]

Interesting. Except pitching is no different than hitting in many aspects.

That's true.

Ernie was not a pitcher, he was teaching based on what he thought he saw others doing.

I presume we are talking about Parker now?

And hitting coaches used to teach what they THOUGHT they were seeing too (squish the bug, etc.) then with advent of slow mo cameras, RVP, Dartfish, etc. we are seeing that is NOT what the great pitchers are actually doing. Or hitters. So, they have to relearn what the people were actually doing.

True. The same principle of check what people say against lots of video of the best works in pitching as well as in hitting.

Part of the problem here is we all define what is a successful pitcher by different standards. In year's past, only the best of the best got to play in college. Yet, today... nearly every college has a program and almost anyone who wants to can play in college at some level. Yet the stigma still applies that "she played in college so she must be VERY good". Maybe I hold my standards too high but I just don't see that as a major criteria anymore. And I still say the lack of quality hitting makes average pitchers look good. And that is going to change as the technology is improving for hitting training.

Bill

All true. Also we need to consider physical gifts. Just because a 6 footer is successful doesn't mean she's necessarily efficient. Again, why I'd suggest looking at the smaller girls who are effective as proof of concept.

 

[Ken Krause]

Pitchers who tend to keep the hips open at ball release put a tremendous amount of stress on the throwing shoulder.

I wonder about the use of "open" and "closed" here. I know baseball is the opposite of softball. Open means squared up to the plate, whereas closed means facing third base. Given that the study was done in 1966, is it possible that baseball terms were being applied?

Seems to me you'd put more strain on the shoulder trying to finish facing the plate than you would facing more toward third. The latter is the only way you can make a full circle while staying on a straight line from beginning to end. If you're facing the plate, you either have to turn your shoulders or let the ball wander away from your body/the straight line.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

In the Michelle Smith video that I posted, she is what Ken and I call being "open."

I pitch from the open position. I hit from there and I throw overhand from there.

Now, some older girls that come to me - aren't hitting their power line and are more open, but they aren't throwing the fastball, either. With beginners, I have them hit the power line with both feet lined up.

I will start paying more attention in at U of A. The coaches conference is October 3 and 4th and is $200.00 for registration.

 

[Hillhouse]

All true. Also we need to consider physical gifts. Just because a 6 footer is successful doesn't mean she's necessarily efficient. Again, why I'd suggest looking at the smaller girls who are effective as proof of concept.

Mark you've mentioned this several times and I'm not sure I completely follow you. I guess I just don't think a person's size has anything to do with whether or not they are using their body correctly. Yes, I believe there is RIGHT and WRONG. If this wasn't the case, then you wouldn't see the best pitchers in the world in the exact same positions at the key points in the motion. Male and female. And again, are these pitchers effective because of good pitching or bad hitting? The "best" pitchers in the WCWS last year had mechanics that made me cringe. I couldn't help asking myself, why do they pitch so differently from the best pitchers in the world, mechanically? Forget strategy and pitch selection... mechanically. They all do this crazy sideways step and yet you don't see the top pitchers actually doing that.

 

[batsics1]

I am confused by what constitutes an open vs. closed style. Is it strictly a hip issue? Is it about how much the hips open and/or when and how? Is it about how much the hips close and when? Or is it some combination?

Using Ken's definition of open and closed, I suggest we use the clip of Sara Pauly here - DVD Video Products - as it is very clear and has both side and front views. What style of pitcher is she and why? Is she pitching biomechanically incorrect as defined by Cheri Kempf's quote below?

"The “open/close” method is still being taught. However, it is not biomechanically correct. The opening of the hips through a pivot of the back foot does not allow for contribution of the back leg by time of release of the ball, thus making the delivery inefficient. This inefficiency contributes largely to the two most common injuries in female Fastpitch softball players; back side of shoulder and lower back. Although the method seems to make sense and sounds like it would work, when pitchers pivot, they lose the drive of the back leg and rear before release of the ball."