Open vs Closed Pitching Style
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O.K. last one and I'll wait for some answers. I look at what I write and it makes sense to me but I read it and I actually don't make sense. Before release she pulls her hips to about 45-50 degrees and then the hand passes through, release, then the hips complete the close.
(1) You need to find out her "cruising speed" and her "one time max". "Cruising speed" is how fast she throws in a game. So, this is the speed she can throw consistently over 7 innings and throw for strikes. The one time max is her top speed. Daddies tend to brag about the "one time max", but the cruising speed is really important. My DD had a one time max of 67, but cruised around 62.
(2) As to breaking pitches--(as a disclaimer, not everyone agrees with me on this)--other than Osterman, pitchers usually master only one great breaking pitch. If you turn down the volume on the TV (or the Daddies at the tournaments), and look at the movement on the ball, you'll see that the good pitchers have great movement on one pitch, and then little movement on everything else.
Mastering a breaking pitch means that the pitcher can throw it for a strike and change the level of the pitch. She can also make the breaking pitch move either left to right or right to left. It takes a long time to get that good with a pitch.
One way to tell a newbie parent is to ask them how many breaking pitches his/her kid throws. If you get a laundry list of all the pitches that exist, then most likely she can't throw any of them. (My favorite is the back door rise screw.)
(3) As to the elbow bending, your DD came out of the womb knowing how to do the the "whip". Ueno (the Japanese pitcher) has that whip. I knew a similar girl. She didn't need pitching instruction as to how to throw. She only needed to work on throwing breaking pitches and changeups. She had a very successful collegiate career.
(4) As to "right way" to pitch, the hips have to open for the arm to go by. After the arm goes by, the hips close. There is no other way. There is some debate as to how much the hips should close after the arm goes by the hips. Ueno closes her hips more than Finch.
(5) If your DD is 14 YOA and on a Gold SoCal team, it would be surprising if she didn't play in college. So, you and she need to change your goals.
You need to be thinking about how to get her on the US JO National team.
(2) As to breaking pitches--(as a disclaimer, not everyone agrees with me on this)--other than Osterman, pitchers usually master only one great breaking pitch. If you turn down the volume on the TV (or the Daddies at the tournaments), and look at the movement on the ball, you'll see that the good pitchers have great movement on one pitch, and then little movement on everything else.
Mastering a breaking pitch means that the pitcher can throw it for a strike and change the level of the pitch. She can also make the breaking pitch move either left to right or right to left. It takes a long time to get that good with a pitch.
One way to tell a newbie parent is to ask them how many breaking pitches his/her kid throws. If you get a laundry list of all the pitches that exist, then most likely she can't throw any of them. (My favorite is the back door rise screw.)
(3) As to the elbow bending, your DD came out of the womb knowing how to do the the "whip". Ueno (the Japanese pitcher) has that whip. I knew a similar girl. She didn't need pitching instruction as to how to throw. She only needed to work on throwing breaking pitches and changeups. She had a very successful collegiate career.
(4) As to "right way" to pitch, the hips have to open for the arm to go by. After the arm goes by, the hips close. There is no other way. There is some debate as to how much the hips should close after the arm goes by the hips. Ueno closes her hips more than Finch.
(5) If your DD is 14 YOA and on a Gold SoCal team, it would be surprising if she didn't play in college. So, you and she need to change your goals.
You need to be thinking about how to get her on the US JO National team.
Being a little more open on the rise does help make the spin easier but Cat throws a great rise so you could key off that. Sounds to me like you are:
1. Just about right but I await the video. A simple Canon mini dv camcorder will get it done but others can offer more expertise on that.
2. If she's hitting mid 60's she must be pretty dang efficient.
3. Don't lose the rest of it for a better rise. Peaches James and Ueno did pretty well without a, as I understand it, rise.
4. I don't think you need an open hip necessarily to throw the curve and I wouldn't worry so much about a curve anyway. Learn to make that drop break in a little to both a rh or lh hitter, have a change you can spot with late movement and add the rise if she can.
It's not just close and open. It's kinetic chain/energy transfer. Some closure happens early in the form of a sharp hard partial rotation. You can even see this in a very small short sharp movement in the Finch clip though more pronounced in the other two clips. Then turnover of the whipping loop along with a partially open hip takes care of clearing the hip. Then the hip generally closes behind the arm from momentum and as the pitcher gets into a fielding position. That last closure is what most focus on but the important hip action happened earlier while the arm was still on it's way down. Hopefully this isn't a teach but I hope to point this out so others don't teach it out of a young pitcher.
O.K. Sluggers you caught me the mid 60's is the "Daddy Bragging" max, she is most consistent at 61-62 for her best pitches, drop & screw.
As for mastering breaking pitches (as best you can for two years experience) I would say drop and screw.
If you would ask me "pitching dad" how many breaking pitches she has I would say 4 but if you ask me how many she can throw consistently then two (screw & drop).
I found a video of her from Feb of this year (I am going to attempt to upload it to this post) and even though I couldn't slow it down I could freeze it.
1. ball/palm mostly facing the sky at 9 O’clock, ball/palm facing 3rd at 7 O’clock
2. The hips are at 45ish degrees during release allowing the hand to slip past hip
3. Her drag foot coming into a slight figure 4 which is surprising
4. She is closed as much if not a little more then Ueno.
5. I will try and upload the video tonight for viewing and comments.
JO team?? How do I make contact?
So getting back to my original post is closing like Ueno a problem for certain pitches and will it cause injury in the future?
Also I want to clarify that this is her first season at 18Gold, she has pitched very little at 43' and while she has had success at this distance it has only been about 10 total innings. We don't know how effective she will be for a complete season and game after game facing potential hitting monsters. I think most see a huge potential in her and this coach has the foresight to see the long term success she could have. I am excited and of course very proud but I am approaching this with caution & trepidation (Privately of course).
On the other hand DD is going in with complete confidence, I gave her the book “One Pitch at a Time” and I think she is taking to heart the message.
As for mastering breaking pitches (as best you can for two years experience) I would say drop and screw.
If you would ask me "pitching dad" how many breaking pitches she has I would say 4 but if you ask me how many she can throw consistently then two (screw & drop).
I found a video of her from Feb of this year (I am going to attempt to upload it to this post) and even though I couldn't slow it down I could freeze it.
1. ball/palm mostly facing the sky at 9 O’clock, ball/palm facing 3rd at 7 O’clock
2. The hips are at 45ish degrees during release allowing the hand to slip past hip
3. Her drag foot coming into a slight figure 4 which is surprising
4. She is closed as much if not a little more then Ueno.
5. I will try and upload the video tonight for viewing and comments.
JO team?? How do I make contact?
So getting back to my original post is closing like Ueno a problem for certain pitches and will it cause injury in the future?
Also I want to clarify that this is her first season at 18Gold, she has pitched very little at 43' and while she has had success at this distance it has only been about 10 total innings. We don't know how effective she will be for a complete season and game after game facing potential hitting monsters. I think most see a huge potential in her and this coach has the foresight to see the long term success she could have. I am excited and of course very proud but I am approaching this with caution & trepidation (Privately of course).
On the other hand DD is going in with complete confidence, I gave her the book “One Pitch at a Time” and I think she is taking to heart the message.
Some general advice: if you are going to survive being a pitcher daddy, learn to laugh at yourself.
As to injuries: In order to throw at 60+ mph, the pitcher has to have pretty good form. I doubt there is some major mechanical problem with her pitching that would lead to injury. Most injuries for pitchers at your DD's level are the result of overuse, not bad form.
As to breaking pitches: In college, batters practice as much as pitchers. They are very, very good. So, if your DD can only throw a rise that breaks 50% of the time, that means 50% of the time her rise is a high fastball. So, 50% of the time it ends up in the left field bleachers. So, she will never be allowed to throw the rise.
My DD was an all-conference D1 pitcher. She could make a ball drop and put it where she wanted it (vertically and horizontally) 100% of the time. That is what is meant by "having" a pitch. (At your DD's age, my DD was cruising at 55 MPH, with a 60 MPH max.)
As a word of advice, don't tell someone who knows pitching that your DD has 4 pitches when she only has 2. Most pitchers only have two or three pitches.
As to injuries: In order to throw at 60+ mph, the pitcher has to have pretty good form. I doubt there is some major mechanical problem with her pitching that would lead to injury. Most injuries for pitchers at your DD's level are the result of overuse, not bad form.
As to breaking pitches: In college, batters practice as much as pitchers. They are very, very good. So, if your DD can only throw a rise that breaks 50% of the time, that means 50% of the time her rise is a high fastball. So, 50% of the time it ends up in the left field bleachers. So, she will never be allowed to throw the rise.
My DD was an all-conference D1 pitcher. She could make a ball drop and put it where she wanted it (vertically and horizontally) 100% of the time. That is what is meant by "having" a pitch. (At your DD's age, my DD was cruising at 55 MPH, with a 60 MPH max.)
As a word of advice, don't tell someone who knows pitching that your DD has 4 pitches when she only has 2. Most pitchers only have two or three pitches.
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Sluggers, I do laugh at myself but its usually drowned out by my wife and DD laughing louder.
Thank you for all of the info and advise. From your daughter credentials you have some experience at the highest level. From my short amount of time on here I am quite humbled to realize I don't know sh** about pitching.
But back to it, I will upload viedo for the next round of critique and advise.
Thank you for all of the info and advise. From your daughter credentials you have some experience at the highest level. From my short amount of time on here I am quite humbled to realize I don't know sh** about pitching.
But back to it, I will upload viedo for the next round of critique and advise.
Olympic Study
These snippets are from the 1996 Olympic Study. Both suggest an approach more closed than open for safety.
Softball Pitching at the 1996 Olympic Games
At ball release, the position of the throwing arm is again important for reducing stress on the throwing arm. The elbow should be bent (approximately 20 degrees short of full extension). The straighter the elbow, the more force on the shoulder joint. Finally, and possibly the most important factor in reducing shoulder distraction force, the hips should be closed at about a 45 degree angle (half way between completely open and completely closed) at the instant of ball release. Pitchers who tend to keep the hips open at ball release put a tremendous amount of stress on the throwing shoulder.
Orientation of the stride foot also appears to be important in producing ball speed. A stride foot which is pointed toward third base (for a right-handed pitcher) at about a 10 to 30 degree angle is optimal for producing ball speed. Pitchers who tended to angle the stride foot too much (greater than 30 degrees) had slower release speeds. Another coordination factor which affects ball speed is the speed of the throwing arm as it circles through the windmill motion. At the instant of ball release, pitchers with great arm speeds tended to have lower ball velocities. Therefore, it appears that the arm circle needs to slow down prior to ball release for optimal ball speed. Two body segment contributions to ball speed also seem to be critical factors to ball velocity at the release point. The speed of the hand just prior to release should be maximal for increased ball speed. Also, those pitchers with high contributions from the elbow just prior to release tended to have lower ball speeds. Thus, proper sequencing of the segments (i.e., shoulder, then elbow, then wrist, then hand) appears to be important to pitching performance.
Larry
These snippets are from the 1996 Olympic Study. Both suggest an approach more closed than open for safety.
Softball Pitching at the 1996 Olympic Games
At ball release, the position of the throwing arm is again important for reducing stress on the throwing arm. The elbow should be bent (approximately 20 degrees short of full extension). The straighter the elbow, the more force on the shoulder joint. Finally, and possibly the most important factor in reducing shoulder distraction force, the hips should be closed at about a 45 degree angle (half way between completely open and completely closed) at the instant of ball release. Pitchers who tend to keep the hips open at ball release put a tremendous amount of stress on the throwing shoulder.
Orientation of the stride foot also appears to be important in producing ball speed. A stride foot which is pointed toward third base (for a right-handed pitcher) at about a 10 to 30 degree angle is optimal for producing ball speed. Pitchers who tended to angle the stride foot too much (greater than 30 degrees) had slower release speeds. Another coordination factor which affects ball speed is the speed of the throwing arm as it circles through the windmill motion. At the instant of ball release, pitchers with great arm speeds tended to have lower ball velocities. Therefore, it appears that the arm circle needs to slow down prior to ball release for optimal ball speed. Two body segment contributions to ball speed also seem to be critical factors to ball velocity at the release point. The speed of the hand just prior to release should be maximal for increased ball speed. Also, those pitchers with high contributions from the elbow just prior to release tended to have lower ball speeds. Thus, proper sequencing of the segments (i.e., shoulder, then elbow, then wrist, then hand) appears to be important to pitching performance.
Larry
